#3 I don't know how others do against other control decks, but I hate the match up so much. Its just a grindy counter spell game, and cruel control doesn't have access to things like Lighting Helix and Colonnade, which provide a bit more punch. Two of my friends who went with me played 6 matches each as well and didn't see any control decks... apparently I got all the control matchups.
Thanks for being honest about it. I mostly play on-line and feel that our deck has plenty of answers to UW-based control. Obviously, due to variance we can't expect to win all of the games, but we should have a very good chance.
Perhaps you need to practice more control match-ups? Your comment "I hate the match up so much" indicates that you aren't comfortable playing it, so you need that practice. Also, I think you have the change the perspective from hating it, to *enjoying* it. Tell yourself that control vs. control is fun! (It is.) There's no rush, no need to be afraid of a quick game-over. It is all about mustering resources and win by having more resources in hand (and lands on the table) than your opponent, something that you gain through a gradual and slow process. Take pleasure in seeking out small advantages here and there, and in the end out-power your opponent with the accumulated advantage. One of the best advice I got was that when you sit down to play control, that you have to sit down with an attitude that you want to sit and play until time runs out, having all of the time in the world. (You still want to play reasonably fast, of course.)
It's funny how a positive attitude make you a better Magic player. It's easier to see lines of play, even when things are against you. If you are defeatist, you won't be playing towards your outs ("I won't get the card I need anyway.") You won't take the time to calculate in order to figure out what the path is for the least amount of damage. You won't even consider what may or may not be in your opponent's hand. If you reverse your thinking, I am pretty sure your matches will improve drastically.
Has anyone considered using Kiora's Dismissal in their sideboard? It seems quite strong for us, since we're weak against Gods, bestow and most artifacts we care about are also enchantments.
@ Rogon: Thanks for the mana base tips.. It is rather hard to pick the right lands and the right numbers for it. 90% of the time I hardly had any issues with red sources.. unless someone franticly focussing on hating my red away.
I hope this will atleast make the 90% being not color screwed go up towards the 99%.
So, +1 blue, -3 black and +3 red, and you are at 21 blue, 15 black and 15 red, so yes - you are improving your chances of not being color-screwed quite a bit. You are still a little short on both Damnation and Sowing Salt, and still short on Anger of the Gods, while blue is definitely covered. One way to improve red and black would be to add virtual mana-sources, i.e. cheap can-trips, such as Serum Visions and Shadow of Doubt. 4 cheap can-trips count as one mana source (or you can think of it as reducing the source requirements for each of your colors by 1).
I was wondering... Enchantments can be a big issues for Grixis. We play just those colors that would rather see enchantments be removed from the whole TCG. Blood Moon, Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace, Choke, Seismic Assault or any enchantment Boggles has to offer comes to mind. Would Kiora's Dismissal be a decent enough card to play in the SB? I always have this 'meh' feeling about putting cards in the SB with the "I might get caught off-guard" idea. It mostly is just a card to use with Teachings, but you might have to go to atleast 2 Mystical Teachings in the MB.
Another thought.. What do we feel about Silence the Believers? To me it feels decent at best. For 4 mana I rather want a boardwipe or something that makes sure a creature will die.. something like Sudden Death. For 7 mana I want it to be a game winning card.
I would love to see how how Kiora's Dismissal works out -- it could be a wonderful addition. I've typically used Annul since it also is good against affinity. I'm not sure Silence the Believers makes the cut, as even Terminate isn't played by many Grixis lists... Having said that, I played in the pre-release and cast it for 7 mana and it was quite the blow-out. But Limited is quite a different story from Modern.
On Hero's Downfall, it's a great card against any "mid-range" or slow deck. The reason it's not being used though is that most problematic decks in Modern aren't mid-range nor slow... How did the planes-walker resolve? Sounds to me that the best answer lies in counters.
I will instead focus on the new Howling Mine, Dictate of Kruphix, which could be quite fun with 4 Notion Thief. Also, instead of Divination and/or Inspiration, Font of Fortunes seems like a better card, since in a desperate situation you can pop it on turn 3 (4) while still leaving up (1) 2 mana for a counter.
Pin to the Earth is a nice new semi-removal for mono-blue, and may be a way for us to play control while increasing devotion. It may be that we can actually use Gods instead of PWs in a control shell. I will certainly experiment in that direction.
Silence the Believers is better than Gild simply on account of being an instant. I can see it as a one-of in my deck.
In red, Dictate of the Twin Gods may be used if you are on the controlled burn path. It does make your Lightning Strike and Rakdos's Return that more painful. The down-side is of course that it works both ways. Magma Spray is obviously a much better Shock for us, which already saw play to shore up the aggro match-up, and Spite of Mogis could be quite powerful in a control deck.
Disciple of Deceit screams "build around me", but I am not quite sure how to most profitably and reliably tap/un-tap her. Keranos, God of Storms might see some play, but it is dangerous to tap out on turn 5, so only play-testing will tell how good it is. It is for sure the only God that has a planeswalker feeling to it. Stormchaser Chimera is laughably bad. Given the story-line, I don't see how they could fail so badly.
We're finally getting the UR land in Temple of Epiphany. We're also getting a decent multi-land in Mana Confluence. I would warn against using too many of them though, we are already taxed quite heavily on shock-lands.
In conclusion, I am unfortunately not too exited about Grixis. We've now had two blocks where our main axes have been lackluster. In Return to Ravnica, Dimir's role as the "mill your opponent" color hurt us a lot. In Theros, both UB and UR seems to be at a much lower overall power-level than the rest of the color combinations. There are no better control cards than Sphinx's Revelation and Supreme Verdict, and with Oblivion Ring 2.0, there is now no better color than white (and blue/white) for removal. If I had to rank targeted removal as a whole, I would rank it: Banishing Light > Detention Sphere > Chained to the Rocks > Hero's Downfall > Dreadbore.
So, with white as the best control color - I will most likely either turn to Esper or UWR (most likely splashing one extra color for Rakdos's Return).
I'm a little concerned with your mana-base (20 blue, 18 black, 12 red, 26 lands), in that you run 2 Anger of the Gods main, and also 2RR spells in the side-board. In a 26 land deck I would recommend 18 red sources for 1RR, 16 sources for 2RR, and 15 untapped red sources for a turn 1 Lightning Bolt.
For an example of setting up your mana, you may have a look at my blog-post on this site.
Night of Souls' Betrayal is a decent side-board card against many decks in the format, but it is a bit slow. Against pod, I side in 4 Rakdos Charm, which is really quite good in that match up. If you also run a few Shadow of Doubt and Surgical Extraction you will force the pod player to play a regular creature-based game, one which you will win most of the time.
It occurs to me that so many of the new cards are interesting, so much more than the previous sets. It is not immediately obvious how they interact with other cards in the format (like e.g. devotion), and they play on so many different fronts.
For instance, the 1 CMC red sorcery that only targets creatures, but which depend on instants & sorceries in the graveyard. In the right deck, it is going to be great -- in the wrong deck it will just be awful. The same with Kruphix; it enables a bunch of X-cards that has previously been dismissed.
This is why I am really intrigued by this set, after having been bored out of my mind by the previous two sets. These cards make you *think*.
This mana base is actually quite reasonable. He has 26 lands (6 basics, 10 temples and 10 shock lands), 16 red, 15 white and 15 blue sources. He can play 2CC spells with 15 lands just fine. He can play any C, 1C, spells just fine. 3RRR is fine too (it requires 16 red).
Surgical Extraction feels to me to be more of a side-board card against specific threats. Unless you hit a card in their hand, it is net card disadvantage. I also don't like Thoughtseize, since it is too taxing on our life-total (*), with only Cruel Ultimatum to save us from game loss. Finally, Serum Visions has performed much better for me than Think Twice.
Thanks for being honest about it. I mostly play on-line and feel that our deck has plenty of answers to UW-based control. Obviously, due to variance we can't expect to win all of the games, but we should have a very good chance.
Perhaps you need to practice more control match-ups? Your comment "I hate the match up so much" indicates that you aren't comfortable playing it, so you need that practice. Also, I think you have the change the perspective from hating it, to *enjoying* it. Tell yourself that control vs. control is fun! (It is.) There's no rush, no need to be afraid of a quick game-over. It is all about mustering resources and win by having more resources in hand (and lands on the table) than your opponent, something that you gain through a gradual and slow process. Take pleasure in seeking out small advantages here and there, and in the end out-power your opponent with the accumulated advantage. One of the best advice I got was that when you sit down to play control, that you have to sit down with an attitude that you want to sit and play until time runs out, having all of the time in the world. (You still want to play reasonably fast, of course.)
It's funny how a positive attitude make you a better Magic player. It's easier to see lines of play, even when things are against you. If you are defeatist, you won't be playing towards your outs ("I won't get the card I need anyway.") You won't take the time to calculate in order to figure out what the path is for the least amount of damage. You won't even consider what may or may not be in your opponent's hand. If you reverse your thinking, I am pretty sure your matches will improve drastically.
2 Consume the Meek
2 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Cryptic Command
4 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
2 Shadow of Doubt
4 Spell Snare
2 Terminate
2 Think Twice
4 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Dreadship Reef
4 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Watery Grave
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Counterflux
1 Damnation
1 Dispel
1 Duress
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Magma Spray
1 Negate
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sowing Salt
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Terminate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Threads of Disloyalty
And also:
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Consume the Meek
2 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Cryptic Command
4 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
2 Shadow of Doubt
3 Spell Snare
2 Terminate
2 Think Twice
4 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Dreadship Reef
1 Drowned Catacomb
4 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
2 Watery Grave
1 Aetherling
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Combust
1 Counterflux
1 Deathmark
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Molten Rain
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sowing Salt
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wurmcoil Engine
So, +1 blue, -3 black and +3 red, and you are at 21 blue, 15 black and 15 red, so yes - you are improving your chances of not being color-screwed quite a bit. You are still a little short on both Damnation and Sowing Salt, and still short on Anger of the Gods, while blue is definitely covered. One way to improve red and black would be to add virtual mana-sources, i.e. cheap can-trips, such as Serum Visions and Shadow of Doubt. 4 cheap can-trips count as one mana source (or you can think of it as reducing the source requirements for each of your colors by 1).
I really like Night of Souls' Betrayal, having 2 in my sideboard.
I would love to see how how Kiora's Dismissal works out -- it could be a wonderful addition. I've typically used Annul since it also is good against affinity. I'm not sure Silence the Believers makes the cut, as even Terminate isn't played by many Grixis lists... Having said that, I played in the pre-release and cast it for 7 mana and it was quite the blow-out. But Limited is quite a different story from Modern.
On Hero's Downfall, it's a great card against any "mid-range" or slow deck. The reason it's not being used though is that most problematic decks in Modern aren't mid-range nor slow... How did the planes-walker resolve? Sounds to me that the best answer lies in counters.
I will instead focus on the new Howling Mine, Dictate of Kruphix, which could be quite fun with 4 Notion Thief. Also, instead of Divination and/or Inspiration, Font of Fortunes seems like a better card, since in a desperate situation you can pop it on turn 3 (4) while still leaving up (1) 2 mana for a counter.
Pin to the Earth is a nice new semi-removal for mono-blue, and may be a way for us to play control while increasing devotion. It may be that we can actually use Gods instead of PWs in a control shell. I will certainly experiment in that direction.
Silence the Believers is better than Gild simply on account of being an instant. I can see it as a one-of in my deck.
In red, Dictate of the Twin Gods may be used if you are on the controlled burn path. It does make your Lightning Strike and Rakdos's Return that more painful. The down-side is of course that it works both ways. Magma Spray is obviously a much better Shock for us, which already saw play to shore up the aggro match-up, and Spite of Mogis could be quite powerful in a control deck.
Disciple of Deceit screams "build around me", but I am not quite sure how to most profitably and reliably tap/un-tap her. Keranos, God of Storms might see some play, but it is dangerous to tap out on turn 5, so only play-testing will tell how good it is. It is for sure the only God that has a planeswalker feeling to it. Stormchaser Chimera is laughably bad. Given the story-line, I don't see how they could fail so badly.
We're finally getting the UR land in Temple of Epiphany. We're also getting a decent multi-land in Mana Confluence. I would warn against using too many of them though, we are already taxed quite heavily on shock-lands.
In conclusion, I am unfortunately not too exited about Grixis. We've now had two blocks where our main axes have been lackluster. In Return to Ravnica, Dimir's role as the "mill your opponent" color hurt us a lot. In Theros, both UB and UR seems to be at a much lower overall power-level than the rest of the color combinations. There are no better control cards than Sphinx's Revelation and Supreme Verdict, and with Oblivion Ring 2.0, there is now no better color than white (and blue/white) for removal. If I had to rank targeted removal as a whole, I would rank it: Banishing Light > Detention Sphere > Chained to the Rocks > Hero's Downfall > Dreadbore.
So, with white as the best control color - I will most likely either turn to Esper or UWR (most likely splashing one extra color for Rakdos's Return).
I'm a little concerned with your mana-base (20 blue, 18 black, 12 red, 26 lands), in that you run 2 Anger of the Gods main, and also 2RR spells in the side-board. In a 26 land deck I would recommend 18 red sources for 1RR, 16 sources for 2RR, and 15 untapped red sources for a turn 1 Lightning Bolt.
For an example of setting up your mana, you may have a look at my blog-post on this site.
For instance, the 1 CMC red sorcery that only targets creatures, but which depend on instants & sorceries in the graveyard. In the right deck, it is going to be great -- in the wrong deck it will just be awful. The same with Kruphix; it enables a bunch of X-cards that has previously been dismissed.
This is why I am really intrigued by this set, after having been bored out of my mind by the previous two sets. These cards make you *think*.
Bravo, so far, Wizards of the Coast!
There's obviously also Grixis Delver that briefly was a thing.
(*): I had a game against a black/white deck facing 3 Thoughtseize and 2 Duress by turn 6. By then my opponent was at 11 life. I drew Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Snapcaster Mage, and with some help from Creeping Tar Pit he died the next turn. It goes to show that life-loss from shock-lands and cards like Thoughtseize can be very bad.