We each have to use what nubers we have. Before the Worlds I had my local meta that proved to many control was viable and would be seen at Worlds in the Modern format. The numbers we got from Worlds is all we got. If those dont impress upon you control is viable, I dont know what you need. Control is being played on-line and in paper tournys and doing quite well for the limited amount of decks.
All I have ever said about the format is give it time. I feel those screaming unfair about Modern were not around for when Legacy was started up. Legacy was a terrible format when it started, completely broken in so many ways. Yet people persisted and the format leveled out over time. I feel the same will happen with Modern, its just we have a few too many chicken littles screaming the sky is falling and not enough people actually trying to play cards and decks outside their comfort zone.
It will be interesting to come back to threads like this after the PTQ season or in a year after the next Worlds and see where the format is and see what everyone was complaining about.
If Shuuhei Nakamura and Jun'ya Iyanaga think control is good enough to play at worlds then I think it's at least good enough to play at FNM.
I don't think anyone can sit and say there's no chance for control anymore, it would have to get completely demolished by zoo at the next big tournament to justify saying that.
you said no tournaments had 12 rounds of swiss and I was saying that your wrong....
How does that validate anything you view. I never said anything to attempt to validate anything I had said in the past other than these stats are really bad. I mean one zoo variant had 100% so it never loses right....its all about numbers and data points which we don't have enough for several decks. Thus every deck other than zoo, twin, and affinity are not proven quite yet.
15 or better decks
Top 8
1/5 Tzu-ching Kuo - 18 points Affinity
1/5 Shuhei Nakamura - 18 points Gifts Rock
1/5 Scott Richards - 18 points RUG Tempo
1/5 Andrew Roistan - 18 points Zoo(b//b)
1/5 Alan Warnock - 16 points Snow-White(proc)
6-8 27 other decks tied
[/spoiler]
According to the standings 7 and 8 were.
Paulo vitor da rosa - Snapcaster zoo
Jun'ya Iyanaga - Mystical teachings
There's another 18 point deck (Hannu Vallin) that wasn't posted in the decklists and I really wanna know what it was.
The reason combo is bad is because almost no one played combo decks, except for twin, because everyone looked at the other combos and went "whatever, twin is much faster/easier than that, so I should just play twin." (except the people who realized that Melira's lack of presence online would mean no one was prepared for it) And then they discovered why it isn't better to play the only combo deck anyone knows about - you get hated to death.
The answer to your question, by the way, is that control decks only crush combo they are prepared for, but they can also crush aggro they are prepared for, so if everyone is gearing up for Zoo, then playing Zoo isn't really a good idea - you get crushed by the control decks that geared for you, you 50/50 the mirror, and you only get to crush the random decks that took a shot and failed. Its an even worse spot in a PTQ, because it means that when you get to the top 8, you are pretty much only facing decks that are good against you.
It would have been really nice to see what would have happened in a top 8 there. Someone should do a fantasy one with the decks that would have made it!
I think it should be 15+ points at the least. 12-13 points would not be good enough to make a top 8. I mean if you go 4-2 in 6 rounds double that for a PTQ and your 8-4 were PTQs typically cut off at X-2 or X-2-1. If it can't get into the top 8 it is at best tier 2.
I think that would be the best way to go, then in the future they can always be bumped up or taken off depending on how they perform.
If they would have put more time into the format I think there would have been more control decks around. With 3 formats to prepare for and standard being the most important it was just way easier for people to play the most established deck in the format.
How about ignore every other deck ever and just play zoo. We can change the format name from modern to zoo wars and then no one has to listen to how much better zoo is than every other possible deck over and over again.
Just because some of the control decks did poorly doesn't mean all of the control decks are bad. Some of them performed really well, actually more are above 50% than below.
The Japanese player got really lucky that last game and got a bunch of really clutch top decks and the Zoo player didn't really get a ton more relevant cards. Just because it did well in the Team championship doesn't mean its good, you only need to win 2 of the three formats. And if the the results from the swiss mean anything, Twin isn't very good, Zoo is much better with a greater than 50% win rate while still making up a quarter of the metagame.
I'm pretty sure both teams in the finals got carried by their wins in the other two formats up to the finals as well.
Yeah, that was a great analysis of the metagame. I think it shows there is a lot of diversity and the environment is pretty healthy. After reading that, I expect no bannings and no unbannings. I think we're stable, and it looks good.
I couldn't agree more. These are the kind of results the format really needed.
Maybe legacy is just a little to tight of a format to fit in punishing fire, it's great with grove in play but otherwise it's an inefficient burn spell. Your opponent has a better chance of getting a wasteland than you have of getting both punishing fire and grove.
A few of the control decks posted decent results against zoo.
Bant control 50% (2 matches)
Cruel control 50% (4 matches)
gifts 58.82% (17 matches)
RWU control 100% (only 2 matches)
Grixis control 62.5% (8 matches)
Teachings 55% (20 matches)
UW control 66.66% (9 matches)
The only one I see zoo having a 50+ win percentage against is tron, with only one match. A lot of these decks posted decent numbers against combo too, maybe this is the start of control for modern. I'd definitely at least put a lot of these decks in t1.5 if not t1.
At a quick glance death cloud looks like it performed the best out of all of the control, 60% against zoo and 82.73% against splinter-twin. Too bad I don't like to play black!
If Shuuhei Nakamura and Jun'ya Iyanaga think control is good enough to play at worlds then I think it's at least good enough to play at FNM.
I don't think anyone can sit and say there's no chance for control anymore, it would have to get completely demolished by zoo at the next big tournament to justify saying that.
That's true, even if the tie-breakers were done properly for it, with that many tied there's so many decks that missed out by a a hair.
It will sort by format, seems so weird to me that they didn't post it with the rest of the decks.
According to the standings 7 and 8 were.
Paulo vitor da rosa - Snapcaster zoo
Jun'ya Iyanaga - Mystical teachings
There's another 18 point deck (Hannu Vallin) that wasn't posted in the decklists and I really wanna know what it was.
18 points - Shuuheu Nakamura - Gifts Ungiven
18 points - Hannu Vallin - Unknown
18 points - Andrew Roistan - Boom/bust zoo
18 points - Scott Richards - RUG tempo
18 points - Tzu Ching Kuo - Affinity
16 points - Alan Warnock - Martyr
15 points - Paulo vitor da rosa - Snapcaster zoo
15 points - Jun'ya Iyanaga - Mystical teachings
Does anyone know what Hannu Vallin played? The deck's not listed in the 4-2 plus section despite going 6-0-0.
It would have been really nice to see what would have happened in a top 8 there. Someone should do a fantasy one with the decks that would have made it!
I think that would be the best way to go, then in the future they can always be bumped up or taken off depending on how they perform.
I'm pretty sure both teams in the finals got carried by their wins in the other two formats up to the finals as well.
I couldn't agree more. These are the kind of results the format really needed.
Bant control 50% (2 matches)
Cruel control 50% (4 matches)
gifts 58.82% (17 matches)
RWU control 100% (only 2 matches)
Grixis control 62.5% (8 matches)
Teachings 55% (20 matches)
UW control 66.66% (9 matches)
The only one I see zoo having a 50+ win percentage against is tron, with only one match. A lot of these decks posted decent numbers against combo too, maybe this is the start of control for modern. I'd definitely at least put a lot of these decks in t1.5 if not t1.
At a quick glance death cloud looks like it performed the best out of all of the control, 60% against zoo and 82.73% against splinter-twin. Too bad I don't like to play black!