AV is odd in that list. I would stick to the "model" that has been working lately, with Electrolyze and more Helixes. A Geist/Queller build like that needs Burn. Your plan is not to suspend a Vision and sit back, you're trying to be proactive when needed.
In my list I will make room for Opt going down to 22 lands and trimming 1-2 cards (Queller could be one of them).
I will probably try to go -1 Colonnade, -1 Queller, -1 Helix and I'll have to think about the fourth slot. Could be another land, could be a Serum Vision even. I know for a fact Snapcaster, Bolt, Path and Cryptic will always be 4 of for me and I'd like all the other cards to be at least 3 of, I like the redundancy.
playing 4 colonnade and 4 cryptic I don't think even with Opt I'd go below 23 lands, this is a mana hungry deck.
Question about using Dark Confidant in WB versions. For those playing Bob, I am looking to understand your experiences playing the card because it seems such a high risk to reward and therefore almost counter-intuitive for the deck, given that we have so many 3- and 4-drop cards and not much to compensate with lifegain. How often has Bob killed you in games? Do you find you side him out in a lot of match-ups? How has he won you games? Thus far, I have only played about a dozen or so matches. I have seen Bob (I have been playing 2 in the deck) in just a few games, and usually late, and he has been almost instantly removed. The one time he wasn't removed I effectively bolted myself with a 3-drop draw next turn and then got hit for 4 more with TKS....
I find Bob to be fantastic and have considered going up to 3 generally every time he sticks I win unless I was already to far behind, and even sometimes when behind he can catch you up, generally only board him out in matches where you would expect to such as burn, affinity, etc...
Stock list I guess but 2 Dark Confidants in the MB makes me think if it's worth running a couple of them, 73% of the E&T lista in MTGGoldfish run 2 copies. Do you think is a card that we need? I know we need a card draw engine but in this deck with high average of CMC cards Dark Confidant maybe is a little clunky. Is there any other good draw engine or should I play the 2 Dark Confidants?
I have been on this deck for a few tourney's and the 2 bobs have been very good, I generally only side them out against hyper ago and burn. helped me win a game against Bant Eldrazi last night in fact in last round to finish 4-1, in fact I have been running the exact same main deck as the 14th place deck for 6 weeks, sideboard differs but that should always be flexible.
Any tips on how to beat Junk (with BG-Rack)? Take out discard, bring in midrangey stuff? Or just stick with the main plan? Is smallpox any good or not?
Maybe board extraction to get lingering souls, really that is the most problematic card they have beside AD, which you just have to get and hope they don't top deck it in a tight race.
Okay ladies and gentlemen. Went 4-0-0 tonight to win it all. Was 12 people.
Match 1: White Weenies 2-0
Summary: Nothing special. I out-boarded him quickly first match. Didn't SB second match as he didn't put any threats up.
Match 2: Slivers 2-0
Summary: He wasn't able to get out of the slump I put him in with a turn one Inquisition into a turn two Thoughtseize. Was able to race him after. Boarded in Zealous Persecutions. Snagged a ZP and used it in combat to level the playing field. Out raced him game two.
Match 3: Esper Gifts Ungiven 2-1
Summary: He didn't spect a list with so many planeswalkers for tokens. And he hadn't the opportunity to watch my games. Got Lili out turn 3 and managed his hand with a Lili and a Bitterblossom. He countered my Gideon, next turn I brought out Sorin. He conceded game 1 as I was going to ult Lili and Sorin. Match two I sided out the two Gideons in favor for two Rest in Peace. Sided out the two Spectral Processions for two Lost Legacy. and sided out two Anguished Unmakings for two Surgical Extractions. So I lost match 2 due to him hard casting a Elesh Norn. Nuff said. Went on to Match three and I managed his hand. Inquisitioned turn one a Mana Leak. Paid 2 life to Extract the Mana Leaks. (He only had 4 Mana Leaks and 3 Cryptic Commands for counters.) On turn three I Lost Legacy'd his Gifts Ungiven. Turn 4 I brought out Lili and after that I just hand managed the opponent the rest of the way to victory.
Match 4: Dredge 2-1
Summary: Match 1 was his. Boarded in Surgicals, Rest in Peaces and Lost Legacy. Took out Liliana. Match 2 I started with Rest in Peace. He conceded. Match three I was able to first turn Inquisition a Cathartic Reunion. Next turn another Inquisition takes Stinkweed and I pay 2 life to Surgical it. I lost Legacy'd Prized Amalgam, drew into another Surgical and as his lone Bloodghast attacked at the time I took it out with a spirit and Surgical Extracted that as well. After that it was pretty easy.
Made a few mistakes. But the best game of the night had to be against Gifts Ungiven. Props to that player. He told me after I won the tournament that he's seen a lot of token decks. He said he never has seen one quite like mine. Made me have all the feels.
We have a winner that isn't BG or Jeskai Saheeli, yet people are still unhappy? smh. I have no idea what kind of result you were hoping for.
How about a meta isn't dominated by ONE archetype? At this point, I'd gladly go back to BG/Jeskai Saheeli dominating Standard; that is technically 100% more diverse than what this weekend's PT results indicate.
Also does anyone else here notice that even in the days of SIEGE RHINO and COLLECTED COMPANY, there still wasn't a PT where 6 out of 8 decks were from ONE archetype?
The most ironic part is that this is all despite WoTC's recent efforts to make Standard more fun and diverse, including the recent bannings. WoTC's ever-so valiant efforts to help Standard somehow achieved the exact opposite. We can't wait to see how they're going to "save" Standard this time. How about just straight-up banning all the most played cards?
Last PT Top 8 this bad was modern with the Eldrazi
If you're going to splash green for the Oath of Ajani then you have to play Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, the 3 mana token producing PW. Alternate ramp in the form of Noble Hierarch is also, from my POV, non-negotiable in the now 3-color deck that cannot afford turn 1 discard plays as it needs to quickly advance its mana (and by extension, game plan). Black seems less and less necessary except for our starboy, Lingering Souls and perhaps Sorin.
agree with Nissa as a must if you want to add green.
Big difference between this affecting Modern the way Modern affected legacy, no reserve list for modern, cards can always be reprinted to make sure enough are out there.
WotC had a loop-hole to reprint RL cards, but they closed it and created Modern instead. Legacy players were upset by this choice; just as Modern players will be upset if WotC creates and supports this format instead of upping the reprints for Modern.
Really it's the same situation - prices in Modern are prohibitively high and this is preventing players from joining. Apparently WotC has other concerns with reprinting expensive staples besides the RL (like consumer confidence in the secondary market). A cheaper non-rotating format will be an alternative to anybody who would have shelled out for the more expensive format but will take the cheaper option instead. Players who will be glad for a cheaper format won't care about the fate of Modern anymore than Modern players care about Legacy.
Completely disagree, there is nothing stopping WOTC from supporting both formats with reprints the way there is with Legacy, in fact as Frontier gets more and more sets it will likely suffer from similar issues that all non-rotating formats do, new cards will have a harder and harder time breaking in as the power level will obviously increase overtime one does in such a large card pool. If they can make money reprinting cards for both formats I don't see any reason they wouldn't do so, hell through supplementary products they still find ways to impact legacy and why $$$, plain and simple.
Why am I imagining the modern forums on MTGSalvation are going to be "colorful" when this happens. A lot of people over there are worried about Modern attendance dropping and that isn't going to help in the slightest, though I'm more on wizards side at this point with generating a new window.
A lot of those worried Modern players probably weren't very sympathetic when Legacy players felt their format of choice was threatened by Modern.
I say let people play whatever games they want. Nobody owes it to you to play and support the format of your preference. Legacy has survived (despite slowed growth) because it has enough appeal to retain and attract players. Modern too will endure if and only if people in sufficient numbers still want to play it. End of story.
Big difference between this affecting Modern the way Modern affected legacy, no reserve list for modern, cards can always be reprinted to make sure enough are out there.
Well, Modern has more problems than card availability. You know how in Dragonball Z the fighters power levels just kept going up each season until they were blowing up planets, and then Toriyama decided to try to do a power reset with Dragonball GT and that ended up with the fighters getting even more powerful by the end of it? Modern has that problem.
I know, power level and lack of viable deck options is a real problem in Modern. That's why I suggested maybe a slow-rotating format could fill the gap between the allegedly boring Standard and the overpowered Modern. Removing blocks with powerful cards like Innistrad, RTR or Scars of Mirrodin could refresh all these things.
Anyway, good to know others share my disappointment with Theros not being in Frontier
Well, Modern has more problems than card availability. You know how in Dragonball Z the fighters power levels just kept going up each season until they were blowing up planets, and then Toriyama decided to try to do a power reset with Dragonball GT and that ended up with the fighters getting even more powerful by the end of it? Modern has that problem.
I know, power level and lack of viable deck options is a real problem in Modern. That's why I suggested maybe a slow-rotating format could fill the gap between the allegedly boring Standard and the overpowered Modern. Removing blocks with powerful cards like Innistrad, RTR or Scars of Mirrodin could refresh all these things.
Anyway, good to know others share my disappointment with Theros not being in Frontier
Huh? there are a lot of viable decks in Modern, Dredge,Burn,Jund,Junk,Affinity,Grixis Delver,Grixis Control, Zoo, RW Control, Knightfall, RG Titan, Scapeshift,Infect,Jeskai Control and Midrange, Skred Red, Ad Mauseam, Elrdazi Taxes,Bant Eldrazi, Kikki-Chord, Company just off the top of my head
Far more diverse than standard ever really is, frontier may be a good format not knocking it, but to say Modern isn't diverse is just false.
Some playtesting with it a few years led some to conclude that it didn't stick often enough. Since people hold their removal against us, myth realized let them use it with impunity upon activation.
What makes Gideon a good card here is that it evades and is indestructible
Yep, plus it's sorta a weird card to use imho.
On another note went 7-1 this week over 2 events, and just found out 2 more people in my local meta have finished UG Infect so I've had to shift my deck again to deal with that as up to 20-25% (4/16-20) of the FNM and weekly Competitive event meta could be UG Infect now. Ugh...
I find Zealous Persecution to be very good against infect, if you were looking for suggestions, also pretty good against affinity.
I don't even like Nahiri and I'm sure the new Chandra doesn't do anything for the deck. Her +1 is probably not as good as most people think it is while the other abilities are not too relevant due to their loyalty costs. Despite being mono red, I don't think she is that splashable and needs a deck configured to maximize her +1 (maybe skred red)
Surely you could run a mainly black red variant with lili and chandra, or a mainly white red variant with brimaz and chandra? I find it real easy to get double white in my deck on turn 3 for brim and double red by turn 4. I do it all the time in my deck due to making sure i have double red to cast my goblin dark dwellers, i don't really see it as being that mana constraining. I've already seen a couple of mardu decks running chandra pyromaster. I know it's the 'cool' thing to under value her at the moment say she's not that good, but she can remove creatures, draw cards, gain you mana and her ultimate is easy to get to. She has 4 abilities and they're literally all good. Sure her plus 1 doesn't always net you a card, but we saw a couple of coursers running about in jund a while back and that doesn't net a card every time either and it was just a 2/4 that drew lands sometimes, this is a lot more powerful... speaking of which... courser + fetchlands + Chandra sounds real good...
Also it's note worthy that her +1 can also pressure other planeswalkers like lili and nahiri.
I wasn't talking about her casting cost being the restriction - rather, her abilities. Double red isn't impossible like you said, it's a matter of running couple filter lands.
". I know it's the 'cool' thing to under value her at the moment say she's not that good, but she can remove creatures, draw cards, gain you mana and her ultimate is easy to get to."
Well let's consider the four abilities. First, we know that the double red mana isn't exactly useful in top deck situations and it's going to be very situational. Second, the bad shock ability isn't great for pressure. If it could target creatures, holy crap that would be amazing. The problem is that her +1 isn't a consistent card engine. The last two abilities have to be looked at more realistically. Versatility to remove a creature is good but we expect more from a 4-drop; it's the same reason people moved away from Ajani because he was too often a 4 mana helix, which is significantly better than Chandra's -3. The ultimate is something you only consider if it's fairly obtainable (e.g Nahiri, Gideon AZ, Sorin SV, etc.) otherwise it shouldn't be a big factor.
Courser still sees some play in Jund but people moved away from it because it doesn't serve a particular niche like Kitchen Finks or Kolaghan's Command does. Command often gives you more value while Kitchen Finks is better at stabilizing your life against linear aggro.
You may be right that new Chandra isn't good enough but I think it is worth testing before dismissing it in a mardu shell, I mean it's not like we have a Tier 1 deck so to just dismiss ideas without trying them seems very short sighted. After all when Nahiri was first spoiled I heard very little talk of her in modern yet after people tried it they found it was good enough in a Jeskai shell to be competitive in morden and I can go on and on about cards that people would dismiss without really trying only to see them tested by some group to make it. fact is a 4 mana walker with 4 abilities has a lot of flexability is definitely worth trying, I have some doubts on it as well, but also wouldn't be surprised if it makes it to some modern play whether as a 4 of or maybe just a 1-2 of in some fashion in some deck or decks.
I wasn't discouraging testing, but clearly, there are things you can talk about from a theoretical perspective otherwise we'd be testing every cards that ever come out. When Nahiri came out, what people underestimated was really her ultimate, since most planeswalkers we see we don't particularly care about their ultimate abilities. But I wouldn't say she was underrated or anything. Even now, there is no universal consensus among Jeskai players that Nahiri is the best shell to build around.
Just because there isn't a consensus doesn't mean there isn't a best build, Jeskai Nahiri puts up consistantly better results than other Jeskai control builds at this point and it isn't even close, but as far as theory discussion I agree not every card is testable, but I think new Chandra is at least worth a look, after all it's not like any of these Mardu builds is blowing through any major tourney sense with any consistency.
I don't even like Nahiri and I'm sure the new Chandra doesn't do anything for the deck. Her +1 is probably not as good as most people think it is while the other abilities are not too relevant due to their loyalty costs. Despite being mono red, I don't think she is that splashable and needs a deck configured to maximize her +1 (maybe skred red)
Surely you could run a mainly black red variant with lili and chandra, or a mainly white red variant with brimaz and chandra? I find it real easy to get double white in my deck on turn 3 for brim and double red by turn 4. I do it all the time in my deck due to making sure i have double red to cast my goblin dark dwellers, i don't really see it as being that mana constraining. I've already seen a couple of mardu decks running chandra pyromaster. I know it's the 'cool' thing to under value her at the moment say she's not that good, but she can remove creatures, draw cards, gain you mana and her ultimate is easy to get to. She has 4 abilities and they're literally all good. Sure her plus 1 doesn't always net you a card, but we saw a couple of coursers running about in jund a while back and that doesn't net a card every time either and it was just a 2/4 that drew lands sometimes, this is a lot more powerful... speaking of which... courser + fetchlands + Chandra sounds real good...
Also it's note worthy that her +1 can also pressure other planeswalkers like lili and nahiri.
I wasn't talking about her casting cost being the restriction - rather, her abilities. Double red isn't impossible like you said, it's a matter of running couple filter lands.
". I know it's the 'cool' thing to under value her at the moment say she's not that good, but she can remove creatures, draw cards, gain you mana and her ultimate is easy to get to."
Well let's consider the four abilities. First, we know that the double red mana isn't exactly useful in top deck situations and it's going to be very situational. Second, the bad shock ability isn't great for pressure. If it could target creatures, holy crap that would be amazing. The problem is that her +1 isn't a consistent card engine. The last two abilities have to be looked at more realistically. Versatility to remove a creature is good but we expect more from a 4-drop; it's the same reason people moved away from Ajani because he was too often a 4 mana helix, which is significantly better than Chandra's -3. The ultimate is something you only consider if it's fairly obtainable (e.g Nahiri, Gideon AZ, Sorin SV, etc.) otherwise it shouldn't be a big factor.
Courser still sees some play in Jund but people moved away from it because it doesn't serve a particular niche like Kitchen Finks or Kolaghan's Command does. Command often gives you more value while Kitchen Finks is better at stabilizing your life against linear aggro.
You may be right that new Chandra isn't good enough but I think it is worth testing before dismissing it in a mardu shell, I mean it's not like we have a Tier 1 deck so to just dismiss ideas without trying them seems very short sighted. After all when Nahiri was first spoiled I heard very little talk of her in modern yet after people tried it they found it was good enough in a Jeskai shell to be competitive in morden and I can go on and on about cards that people would dismiss without really trying only to see them tested by some group to make it. fact is a 4 mana walker with 4 abilities has a lot of flexability is definitely worth trying, I have some doubts on it as well, but also wouldn't be surprised if it makes it to some modern play whether as a 4 of or maybe just a 1-2 of in some fashion in some deck or decks.
playing 4 colonnade and 4 cryptic I don't think even with Opt I'd go below 23 lands, this is a mana hungry deck.
I find Bob to be fantastic and have considered going up to 3 generally every time he sticks I win unless I was already to far behind, and even sometimes when behind he can catch you up, generally only board him out in matches where you would expect to such as burn, affinity, etc...
I have been on this deck for a few tourney's and the 2 bobs have been very good, I generally only side them out against hyper ago and burn. helped me win a game against Bant Eldrazi last night in fact in last round to finish 4-1, in fact I have been running the exact same main deck as the 14th place deck for 6 weeks, sideboard differs but that should always be flexible.
Maybe board extraction to get lingering souls, really that is the most problematic card they have beside AD, which you just have to get and hope they don't top deck it in a tight race.
Decklist?
Last PT Top 8 this bad was modern with the Eldrazi
agree with Nissa as a must if you want to add green.
Looks pretty bad, Midnight haunting is a bad magic card, and really looks like to decks here part abzan mid, part tokens that generally means bad deck
Wrong thread? how is this related to BW tokens?
Completely disagree, there is nothing stopping WOTC from supporting both formats with reprints the way there is with Legacy, in fact as Frontier gets more and more sets it will likely suffer from similar issues that all non-rotating formats do, new cards will have a harder and harder time breaking in as the power level will obviously increase overtime one does in such a large card pool. If they can make money reprinting cards for both formats I don't see any reason they wouldn't do so, hell through supplementary products they still find ways to impact legacy and why $$$, plain and simple.
Big difference between this affecting Modern the way Modern affected legacy, no reserve list for modern, cards can always be reprinted to make sure enough are out there.
Huh? there are a lot of viable decks in Modern, Dredge,Burn,Jund,Junk,Affinity,Grixis Delver,Grixis Control, Zoo, RW Control, Knightfall, RG Titan, Scapeshift,Infect,Jeskai Control and Midrange, Skred Red, Ad Mauseam, Elrdazi Taxes,Bant Eldrazi, Kikki-Chord, Company just off the top of my head
Far more diverse than standard ever really is, frontier may be a good format not knocking it, but to say Modern isn't diverse is just false.
I find Zealous Persecution to be very good against infect, if you were looking for suggestions, also pretty good against affinity.
Just because there isn't a consensus doesn't mean there isn't a best build, Jeskai Nahiri puts up consistantly better results than other Jeskai control builds at this point and it isn't even close, but as far as theory discussion I agree not every card is testable, but I think new Chandra is at least worth a look, after all it's not like any of these Mardu builds is blowing through any major tourney sense with any consistency.
You may be right that new Chandra isn't good enough but I think it is worth testing before dismissing it in a mardu shell, I mean it's not like we have a Tier 1 deck so to just dismiss ideas without trying them seems very short sighted. After all when Nahiri was first spoiled I heard very little talk of her in modern yet after people tried it they found it was good enough in a Jeskai shell to be competitive in morden and I can go on and on about cards that people would dismiss without really trying only to see them tested by some group to make it. fact is a 4 mana walker with 4 abilities has a lot of flexability is definitely worth trying, I have some doubts on it as well, but also wouldn't be surprised if it makes it to some modern play whether as a 4 of or maybe just a 1-2 of in some fashion in some deck or decks.