MTG Salvation

Quote from Rosy Dumplings »

Quote from beac0n »

You do realize Wizards would go out of business right?

Quite the contrary, more players would actually spend more money that Wizards directly profits from.

This is an interesting topic, actually. The card game "epic" does something similar in allowing players to buy play sets with no variance involved.

Combining this game model with a constantly shifting "standard" format to keep people buying new sets would be an interesting approach that might be able to function on some level.

With that said, it would not make wizards more money. Under the proposed system, I could get a full play set of each mythic from a set for $120 in product. Obtaining a play set of those mythica in the current system requires hundreds of $ in packs to be cracked by someone, even if I am only buying the cards on the secondary market.

For example, consider a set with 12 mythic rates. If one in eight packs holds a mythic rare, I need a total of 48 mythic rates (12 x 4 copies), and each pack costs $4, the total cost in product opened will be about

$4 x 48 x 8 = $1,536

Sounds higher than most people would spend to get a full set of mythics, right? I can most likely go online and get a set of mythics for a few hundred dollars. To assemble that play set that I am buying, however, someone else must have cracked that huge amount of packs (and assembled a number of other cards that they can also sell/trade/use).

Admittedly, this value is lowered a bit when boxes are opened and is lowered further when game shops crack packs to get singles. On the other hand, this value assumes that all of the mythics you need are perfectly distributed. Either way, the value being generated for Wizards under the current system is much higher than it would be under the proposed system.

Quote from axman »

Quote from draftguy2 »

Quote from axman »

Quote from draftguy2 »

Quote from axman »

I don't think you understand why chronicals was so bad. It had nothing to do with the value of the cards in Chronicals.
In fact Chronicles actively tanked the value of every single card that was in the set. Due to being reprinted into oblivion.

It's the same effect shocklands and fetchalnds faced when they were printed in standard Price dropped by 50% (and stayed there).
If cards like blood moon, chalice, etc. were printed in a pack that only cost $4.0 the value of those cards would quickly be gutted.

The reason why the packs are $10 is to slow demand for the product, so key modern/legacy staples don't become "worthless". This does two things:
a) allows key "chase" cards to retain their value so the set is still worth something even months after the original printing. and b) Allows for a slight decrease in the cost of cards without completely skewing the market.

Something you need to be aware of... Most of us would view the "gutting of legacy prices" to be a GOOD thing, a desired and wanted feature not a negitive. It would never gut the value to 0. It might bottom out the value but due to packs having a cost, the values of a set of desired playable cards will never bottom out. only Level out as the prices of packs are a ceiling for them. I would frankly be very happy to never see another single priced at more then $20 a pop ever again.

Most people would disagree with you. That's what they did during chronicalls and people hatead it.
There is a fine line between reprinting too much and just the right ammount. Too much and you get the chronical/yugio effect. (which most people do not want).

I don't know, the value actually looks "slightly" higher than iconic masters. (Iconic master had no really good uncommons/uncommons at all).

Different enviroment, Most of the cards in chronicals were valued due to rarity NOT due to play ability. Most cards in modern are valued to due to play ability and rarity. They will still have play ability demand. It will not tank the set because play ability in a fun format will drive demand even if the cards themselves are more common. Magic is also alot larger then it used tobe back then. I would suggest that most sets are printed significantly MORE times then chronicals was. Just print to demand at a normal packs price like any other set. will this make modern cheaper YES but that is a good thing.

History would not agree with you. For example: shock lands and fetches had their value impacts at a large degree by reprints, despite playability.

Quote from axman »

Quote from draftguy2 »

Quote from axman »

Quote from Silver_Spellthief »

Quote from axman »

See my first point. If packs were cheaper, they could easily become another Chronicles which would be terrible.
The whole purpose of the price point is to prevent another Chronicals. Over-printing (at cheap prices) is just as bad as not enough value.

So if they are just as bad you're telling me that these sets are already as bad chronicles because they don't contain enough value. But you're okay with this extreme but not the other?

Here's the thing, you're looking at this like the knob is only at either zero or eleven. WOTC doesn't have to print all of the best cards ever at common and sell the packs for $4 or sell packs for $10 and only include mostly chaff. They make these products and they can tune them to be reasonable for their price points. If a pack is over double the normal price of packs it should be equal to that in value and/or play experience. And that value should probably be scaled back a bit if the packs were $4. But honestly as it stands now with almost all of the value in these sets being found at mythic WOTC could sell Masters 25 for $4 a pack and I guarantee you we would not have the Chronicles effect because this set is not filled to the brim with value.

I don't think you understand why chronicals was so bad. It had nothing to do with the value of the cards in Chronicals.
In fact Chronicles actively tanked the value of every single card that was in the set. Due to being reprinted into oblivion.

It's the same effect shocklands and fetchalnds faced when they were printed in standard Price dropped by 50% (and stayed there).
If cards like blood moon, chalice, etc. were printed in a pack that only cost $4.0 the value of those cards would quickly be gutted.

The reason why the packs are $10 is to slow demand for the product, so key modern/legacy staples don't become "worthless". This does two things:
a) allows key "chase" cards to retain their value so the set is still worth something even months after the original printing. and b) Allows for a slight decrease in the cost of cards without completely skewing the market.

Something you need to be aware of... Most of us would view the "gutting of legacy prices" to be a GOOD thing, a desired and wanted feature not a negitive. It would never gut the value to 0. It might bottom out the value but due to packs having a cost, the values of a set of desired playable cards will never bottom out. only Level out as the prices of packs are a ceiling for them. I would frankly be very happy to never see another single priced at more then $20 a pop ever again.

Most people would disagree with you. That's what they did during chronicalls and people hatead it.
There is a fine line between reprinting too much and just the right ammount. Too much and you get the chronical/yugio effect. (which most people do not want).

I don't know, the value actually looks "slightly" higher than iconic masters. (Iconic master had no really good uncommons/uncommons at all).

Quote from Pricecut »

Quote from Silver_Spellthief »

I think the problem that would create is that every set there would be some format defining card that is locked at an extremely rare rarity and therefore its price would go through the roof, creating a big rift between the ability for a player to win or just compete fairly and their budget. Standard staples at mythic can already easily reach $40, $50, $60. If that becomes $100 because those cards are so rare we may have another Tarkir block standard situation on our hands where standard decks were just about as pricey as modern ones and that's extremely unhealthy for the format and for the player base.

They don't have to be format defining, they don't even have to be good for the current format. They just have to be all-around good cards. Even if they kept the same 1 in 6 pack average, but made EVERY mythic good, I don't think is unreasonable. It's just rarity shifting and nothing more.

For example, what if they moved Glorious End from Mythic to Rare and instead made Glorybringer the mythic? How much does it really affect standard, or the playability of anything? It doesn't change anything except making GLorybringer pulls more exciting and making Glorious End less disappointing to pull. I don't think it is out of balance to say that every mythic should be a good card period. And by doing the rarity shifting I suggest doesn't really affect the value of anything. Glorybringer might have been a 15-20 dollar card instead of a 10 dollar card for a while, but it would widely sway anything in the long run.

Quote from axman »

Quote from Silver_Spellthief »

Quote from axman »

Quote from Silver_Spellthief »

Quote from axman »

I am not sure why people are so upset about 10$ premium pack.
It helps keep it from becoming another "Chronicals".

Honestly the thing I love about these "premium sets" is the draftability. It's like playing a mini-cube.
So far - it looks like it could be an insanely fun draft format.

Because no one wants to open a $10 pack to only see a bunch of chaff. If these sets were filled to the brim with value where a player would be guaranteed to get around $10 back in secondary market value, that price tag could be justified but we know that it costs just as much to print Masters packs as it does to print standard packs. This makes these sets stink of being $10 pack lotteries designed to make players hope to pull a Chalice of the Void, Imperial Recruiter or Jace the Mind Sculptor. WOTC is trying to serve two masters and it isn't working. Are these supposed to be value reprint sets or great limited environments? We've already examined how they're not doing so hot on the former and if it's the latter then why do they expect players to drop $10 on limited packs with an experience that as mostly been met with an "eh, it's okay" instead of spending $10 on Innistrad packs, a set widely thought of to be one of thr best limited environments of all time? And if the point of these sets is to offer affordable reprints to players then why are packs over double the normal price?

None of this would be as much of a problem of the packs were normally priced but at over double the normal pack msrp a lot of players do not feel like WOTC is producing a product that matches its price tag. I honestly wonder how sales of this set would look without invetsors and card stores busting hundreds of packs to sell the expensive singles.

See my first point. If packs were cheaper, they could easily become another Chronicles which would be terrible.
The whole purpose of the price point is to prevent another Chronicals. Over-printing (at cheap prices) is just as bad as not enough value.

So if they are just as bad you're telling me that these sets are already as bad chronicles because they don't contain enough value. But you're okay with this extreme but not the other?

Here's the thing, you're looking at this like the knob is only at either zero or eleven. WOTC doesn't have to print all of the best cards ever at common and sell the packs for $4 or sell packs for $10 and only include mostly chaff. They make these products and they can tune them to be reasonable for their price points. If a pack is over double the normal price of packs it should be equal to that in value and/or play experience. And that value should probably be scaled back a bit if the packs were $4. But honestly as it stands now with almost all of the value in these sets being found at mythic WOTC could sell Masters 25 for $4 a pack and I guarantee you we would not have the Chronicles effect because this set is not filled to the brim with value.

I don't think you understand why chronicals was so bad. It had nothing to do with the value of the cards in Chronicals.
In fact Chronicles actively tanked the value of every single card that was in the set. Due to being reprinted into oblivion.

It's the same effect shocklands and fetchalnds faced when they were printed in standard Price dropped by 50% (and stayed there).
If cards like blood moon, chalice, etc. were printed in a pack that only cost $4.0 the value of those cards would quickly be gutted.

The reason why the packs are $10 is to slow demand for the product, so key modern/legacy staples don't become "worthless". This does two things:
a) allows key "chase" cards to retain their value so the set is still worth something even months after the original printing. and b) Allows for a slight decrease in the cost of cards without completely skewing the market.

Quote from Colt47 »

Quote from draftguy2 »

Quote from ET1 »

Quote from draftguy2 »

I agree with your end result but not your reasoning, I feel wizards should return complexity to lower raritys. However I feel they need to pay MORE attention to older formats not less. They need to take standard and go "here are 5 cards that help with the following arctypes that exsist in modern/legacy as good potental valid choices to play with" Boom here is a new burn spell its 1 mana sorcory and deals 4 damage to each player, helps burn, Here is a New artifact that nicely fits in to affinity as a potential play choice, Here is a Great libary self miller say 1 black to put the 7 cards of your libary in to your graveyard yoru welcome dredge. Basically assume the other formats can take anything you throw at them and every set print 2-5 cards that slot in to existing decks in the meta game, Preferable T 2 and T1.5 decks that push them alittle bit. By printing cards that helps decks that don't exists in standard it only adds value to standard which takes away value from standard staples. This makes standard cheaper withlut warping it since most of the types of cards I am talking about are uselss in standard itself.

I don't think this argument is synonymous with the end result I suggested. This argument is to use new sets to print cards for existing archetypes in older formats that have no impact in standard. What this does is decrease Wizards' demand for standard game play and likely decrease the longevity of magic's success. Wizards does actually need to make money from the game for magic to exist and the best way to do that is by ensuring that standard is fun to play, is interesting and can appeal to both new and enfranchised players. Something it has severely lacked in recent years.

How so? Modern players tend to not purcahse standard product right now, They don't play standard, Remember wizards does not need more people playing standard they need more standard product sales. By putting in the cards for older formats, the eternal format people will purchase said cards, They means packs must be cracked for these people and these people are mostly ok spending $10, $20 for a card that will tweek their deck that extra 1%. by putting say 3 extra $20 cards in a standard enviroment will leach away value from standard decks, This makes the cost to enerty for standard go down, since their is a fixed total EV in every set. It is likely that even if standard players get these cards they will not just go "well I just got Archbound Ravager V2 I guess I should spend the extra $900 for a full affinity deck, they will likely go Hey free $20 that I can trade for the a top tier card for my current standard deck. I agree standard does need to be more interesting, However putting "fun" cards back in standard (cough land destruction, good counterspells, Real combo, Prison decks cough) just likely is't in the cards.

It's not just what cards get printed into standard that brings people into playing it or buying product, though. They have become incredibly tame with their artwork and themes, and it feels like each set moving forward has been playing it a little safer than before. It's not exactly like they aren't showing blood, as Eliminate the Competition is pretty blatant, but Scars had Tel-Jilad Defiance, Necrotic Ooze, etc, that really pushed the kind of feeling one is looking for, from being disturbing to having a sense of understanding human nature. I really wish they'd bring some of that back.

Honestly, for me it's the fact the game thrives around organized events and gatherings that adhere to certain formats and wizards of the coast creating products that don't really help new players gain entrance to these gatherings that is problematic. They print planeswalker decks, anthology sets, and duel decks that sometimes have value in them, but what is the point if that value is from cards that aren't currently playable in the popular formats supported by the events and gatherings? If the products that wizards was pushing to new players at least had more playable cards in them it would be possible to at least help steer someone into a deck that can give some fair match ups, but when you have to tell someone that what they bought is essentially worthless and that they have to spend about 30 to 40 more dollars to build a decent deck, that's a problem. That might be cheap to people who are enfranchised crazy folks like myself, but that's 40 dollars on top of a 20 dollar sealed product someone just spent money on. That's not even going into purchasing sleeves, a play mat, a way to store the cards when not playing, tokens, etc.

Why can't wizards give someone a fetchland in a starter deck, or a Dark Confidant? If the price is too high now on the market to do it, who's fault is it at the end of the day? They had ample amounts of time to do something like this to help newer players get started in the game and have some spotlighted and popular cards. Now they can get barely anything.

Quote from ET1 »

Quote from draftguy2 »

I agree with your end result but not your reasoning, I feel wizards should return complexity to lower raritys. However I feel they need to pay MORE attention to older formats not less. They need to take standard and go "here are 5 cards that help with the following arctypes that exsist in modern/legacy as good potental valid choices to play with" Boom here is a new burn spell its 1 mana sorcory and deals 4 damage to each player, helps burn, Here is a New artifact that nicely fits in to affinity as a potential play choice, Here is a Great libary self miller say 1 black to put the 7 cards of your libary in to your graveyard yoru welcome dredge. Basically assume the other formats can take anything you throw at them and every set print 2-5 cards that slot in to existing decks in the meta game, Preferable T 2 and T1.5 decks that push them alittle bit. By printing cards that helps decks that don't exists in standard it only adds value to standard which takes away value from standard staples. This makes standard cheaper withlut warping it since most of the types of cards I am talking about are uselss in standard itself.

I don't think this argument is synonymous with the end result I suggested. This argument is to use new sets to print cards for existing archetypes in older formats that have no impact in standard. What this does is decrease Wizards' demand for standard game play and likely decrease the longevity of magic's success. Wizards does actually need to make money from the game for magic to exist and the best way to do that is by ensuring that standard is fun to play, is interesting and can appeal to both new and enfranchised players. Something it has severely lacked in recent years.

Quote from ET1 »

I think this argument has mostly referred to modern and eternal formats, but I don't think lowering the price of playing modern/legacy is what is going to make magic a better game. The large price of buying a modern or legacy deck to me seems to be more so an indicator that magic isn't in a horrible spot given the demand exists to create those prices.

What is going to make magic a healthier game is likely focusing more on standard. In the past wizards printed cards without really thinking or caring about the impact on other formats. Now when printing cards they're keeping multiple formats in mind such as edh and modern.

For magic to be a healthier game, wizards should pay a little less mind to other formats. Their watchful eye on how their printings affect other formats has kept the complexity of standard very low, and as a result has diminished the quality of gameplay and reduced diversity within the format.

More complexity in standard at lower rarity levels addresses two issues. It adds more depth to the standard format making for more interesting gameplay. It also helps address price concerns within the flagship format by printing more commons and uncommons that will see tournament play.

This goes directly against wizards' New World Order, but I think New World Order was a mistake to begin with. Sure there is a balance to be struck, but as it stands, standard is neither an engaging format nor a fun one.

The key to magic's long term success is through making standard enjoyable. This might mean enabling more archetypes to be powerful, it might mean printing land destruction again, and it could be just printing more complex cards. Making standard better should be the number one priority as that is always a big source of Wizard's revenue. Ensuring that Magic is profitable for the company producing it is what will increase magic's longevity.

Quote from Teysa_Karlov »

Quote from Ryperior74 »

Quote from Teysa_Karlov »

The issue with doing PW cards for Urza, Serra, Leshrac, and the other absurdly powerful beings of Magic lore is that unless the card is a ten-mana "you win the game" card, it wouldn't be doing justice to the pure absurd power level of the oldwalkers. Oldwalkers were gods. Not Theros "kinda sorta" gods. They were completely unbeatable unless you were one or something similar (Yawgmoth).

uh karn and teferi and Nicol bolas would like a word with you

Neither Karn nor Nicol Bolas are oldwalkers anymore. They don't have the same power. Hence why Nicol Bolas is spending all his time trying to get that power back.

Teferi and Freyalise were oldwalkers, but Urza was an entire league above either of them.

Quote from Teysa_Karlov »

The issue with doing PW cards for Urza, Serra, Leshrac, and the other absurdly powerful beings of Magic lore is that unless the card is a ten-mana "you win the game" card, it wouldn't be doing justice to the pure absurd power level of the oldwalkers. Oldwalkers were gods. Not Theros "kinda sorta" gods. They were completely unbeatable unless you were one or something similar (Yawgmoth).

Yawgmoth was (at the end) techincily living mana! Also for the record Eldrazi could beat them and they could sacrfise their spark to seal off a realm from others. However ya other then that these old walkers were scary guys, Jace is the type of person Urza would go "Kid stop bothering me I am in the process of waging a multi dementioanal Galactic scope war"

Quote from Colt47 »

Quote from NRWGN »

Imagine that Jace Signature Spellbook containing Jace, the Mind Sculptor and turning him from the Wallet Sculpter to the Peoples Sculpture. Crash the market. Eliminate the bourgeoisie.

Their are no old walkers anymore, They are gone finiteo retconed in to extinction. Also as a point of Lore after the Apocolips Urza/Karn happen to be the same person.

I think the more likely scenario is that since he's basically 8x the MSRP of the spellbook every single one gets bought out by scalpers or horded and no one sees them actually make it to the shelves. I'm probably pre-ordering one the second it shows up since at worse I'm getting a jace themed counterspell reprint from the jace vs chandra duel deck in foil, Fact or Fiction Jace duel deck reprint in foil, and possibly a Jace Beleren. I highly doubt they are going to put the most powerful version of jace in the FTV unless they literally hold the spoilers to a week before release.

^THIS^.

Anyone expecting JtMS in a $20 MSRP product is deluding themselves.