Love this archetype. Been playing it since WAR came out on Arena and I've gotten the deck together to bring to my LGS. I managed to win one tournament and come in 3rd in another, still tweaking along the way and stuff.
Some cards that I've tried running but have cut for various reasons are Hero of Precinct One, Hunted Witness, Mayhem Devil, Midnight Reaper, Spark Harvest, and Bolas's Citadel. This list right now, I think, is performing the best in general against most decks. Main gameplan with this list is all-in aggro while using Priest of Forgotten Gods as a card advantage engine. With Judith and/or Footlight Fiend out you can almost always activate Priest and kill multiple things on their side of the board by pinging down their smaller creatures so they have to sacrifice their bigger ones. Or you can just go straight to the face with the damage and end the game outright, especially with Heartfire.
I have also been tinkering around with Orzhov as a more midrange list with Seraph of the Scales, Midnight Reaper, and Oketra - I like that list a lot too but I think Mardu has been performing better in general. This Mardu list, if left unanswered, ends the game by turn 5 pretty much every time, and has the ability to grind a bit later into the game with card advantage and explosive plays from Priest, Sorin, and Bontu.
This deck is particularly really good against Mono Red and other aggro decks, and plays well against midrange decks as well. Against mono red and other aggro, we can match their aggression while getting an advantage through lifegain and trading off our creatures and getting more out of the trades than they do. Against midrange, the deck can either go under it with early aggression and get enough of a lead that they'll have a hard time coming back and then we can hopefully close out the game with a Heartfire or Bontu. Otherwise, the deck can deal with midgame threats decently, especially if Priest of Forgotten Gods sticks. Control is a lot harder for this deck though.
Love this archetype. Been playing it since WAR came out on Arena and I've gotten the deck together to bring to my LGS. I managed to win one tournament and come in 3rd in another, still tweaking along the way and stuff.
Some cards that I've tried running but have cut for various reasons are Hero of Precinct One, Hunted Witness, Mayhem Devil, Midnight Reaper, Spark Harvest, and Bolas's Citadel. This list right now, I think, is performing the best in general against most decks. Main gameplan with this list is all-in aggro while using Priest of Forgotten Gods as a card advantage engine. With Judith and/or Footlight Fiend out you can almost always activate Priest and kill multiple things on their side of the board by pinging down their smaller creatures so they have to sacrifice their bigger ones. Or you can just go straight to the face with the damage and end the game outright, especially with Heartfire.
I have also been tinkering around with Orzhov as a more midrange list with Seraph of the Scales, Midnight Reaper, and Oketra - I like that list a lot too but I think Mardu has been performing better in general. This Mardu list, if left unanswered, ends the game by turn 5 pretty much every time, and has the ability to grind a bit later into the game with card advantage and explosive plays from Priest, Sorin, and Bontu.
This deck is particularly really good against Mono Red and other aggro decks, and plays well against midrange decks as well. Against mono red and other aggro, we can match their aggression while getting an advantage through lifegain and trading off our creatures and getting more out of the trades than they do. Against midrange, the deck can either go under it with early aggression and get enough of a lead that they'll have a hard time coming back and then we can hopefully close out the game with a Heartfire or Bontu. Otherwise, the deck can deal with midgame threats decently, especially if Priest of Forgotten Gods sticks. Control is a lot harder for this deck though.
How is the Shaman worse then a Polukranos in a low cmc temur deck? It pumps your guys and draws cards?
Polukranos is way more resilient, kills dudes and gets HUGE, and is a mana sink for all of your mana dorks to pump into. He's also way above the curve as a 5/5 for 4 that can come out on turn 3 very easily in this deck. Even on turn 4 he's above the curve.
But I can see an argument where they go turn 2 or 3 Courser and you can't ever swing with him. essentially timewalking you.
Isn't trading that guy for a Courser actually a good trade for you? Courser will be netting your opponent life and free card advantage; the shaman is brittle, and you're really only drawing cards with him after you've run out of gas (post turn 5-6 probably), if you're drawing cards with him earlier than that then you're wasting turns and not really playing the deck correctly, ESPECIALLY if you're already going for a more lean, low mana cost more aggressive version of the deck. In the end, if trading our 4 drop for their 3 drop is a good trade for us, why are we running 4 drops that are worse than 3 drops?
Here's the Tribal Zoo list that I've been testing recently with pretty good success. I mostly test against my friend with Scapeshift, Twin, UR Delver, and RUG Delver. I really like pretty much everything about this list. The spell package, the creature package, and the manabase all seem very consistent and powerful.
I've tested Knight of the Reliquary and Noble Hierarch in place of Loam Lion and Kird Ape, and turn 2 Geist/Knight is really, really good, but so is turn 1 Nacatl/Ape/Lion > turn 2 Goyf > turn 3 Geist, or some Snapcaster > Bolt/Path shenanigans. Geist definitely outclasses Knight here, and I think going for a more aggressive strategy with the ape/lion is more effective than the mana dork in this deck.
The thing with Ashcloud Phoenix is, I've found myself rarely getting to 4RR while having a morphed Ashcloud Phoenix and not having a better play to do. When I'm at that kind of mana, I'd rather do something more significant for my board state at that point in the game. I just don't think Ashcloud Phoenix really fits within this archetype. It's a great card that can really generate some card advantage, but I just don't think this is the right deck for it. It belongs more in an all-in kind of Jeskai or mono red deck, IMO.
I've found that with this manabase, I'm having a hard time consisitently getting to double red mana for Sarkhan, Ashcloud Phoenix, and Stormbreath. I've also tested the same list with less Yavimaya Coasts and more Temples of Abandon and this helps colors, but as discussed and expected, that slows down the deck so much to the point where hitting your drops on the tempo you want (turn 1 Elvish Mystic, turn 2 Heir/Rattleclaw Mystic, turn 2-3 Knuckleblade) is a lot less consistent. I found that Elvish Mystic, in a version with more than 6 tap lands, is honestly pretty useless. Even at 6 tap lands it's a stretch. Maybe the answer is to just up the Mana Confluence count to 4 and go all out with it? Really just wish there were more options for G/R untapped lands, right now the only thing that kind of does that is Wooded Foothills, and even then it won't give us both colors at the same time.
I'm also considering cutting Ashcloud Phoenix in favor of something else; it's been kind of underwhelming in my testing. I see you guys saying it's really strong, but it just hasn't been performing for me. Maybe I'm not using it correctly. Can someone give me a rundown - when do I play it for its mana cost, when do I play it as a morph, etc? If I cut it, I'd go up to 4 Boon Satyrs and maybe run a Chandra or something.
The Lightning Strike in the current list is in testing in place of the 3 Stubborn Denials I started with. In my local meta, Stubborn Denials were okay, but not amazing, and I found that when it was in my hand and I asked myself if it would have been better as a Lightning Strike, I said yes most of the time. So we'll see how that goes. But with Lightning Strike in and Stubborn Denial out, the need to get blue mana goes down and the need for red mana goes up a bit.
You might not be deploying your threats at the right time. Do you have a list?
You should ideally be playing PLA after you have firm control of the game. I like to ask myself these questions before I play the 7 mana guy:
Will I still be able to win if I need to return 3-6 lands to my hand?
Am I willing to let him die if I have to fight over him? (against a deck with 3-4 dead removal spells in hand, for example)
Is the board clear enough that I won't be punished for spending my resources on protecting him?
You get the idea. 1 bile blight and 2 hero's downfall is child's play for this deck. If your PLAs are dying after your opponent casts one removal spell on them, then you are probably trying to deploy them too early. I don't know if you were playing control last standard but there's no more of that "rev 2 turns in a row for 5+ and then deploy my aetherling and proceed to win the game". You need to be smart with your resources, and that means being patient.
I'm currently running 3 win cons - 2 Pearl Lake Ancient and 1 Empty the Pits. Should I be running more? I love Empty the Pits but one Bile Blight answers it, and Pearl Lake Ancient gets chumped all day or downfalled or something. A guy I know at my LGS runs Abzan midrange and maindecks at least one Bile Blight and 2 Downfalls - that's enough to effectively shut down my deck, if he sees those cards (granted how long the game goes with this deck, he probably will). So, should I be running more? Like 2 Prognostic Sphinx in addition? Another Empty the Pits? Rolling with just 3 just feels dangerous as I play. Granted, I'm also running 12 counterspells in my version...
One thing I'm thinking of is to simply main-board 4x Hall of Triumph, full stop. Jack these little guys up to size.
It's legendary, so you can't have more than one out at a time, and even so it's kind of a dead card in a red deck wins kind of deck - you're not focused on board presence with RDW, you're focused on rushing down your opponent's life as fast as possible. I feel like playing around getting your board set up, getting multiple creatures out, and sticking them instead of just going to the face constantly is going about it with the wrong mindset.
What do you guys think of this list? Planning on bringing it to FNM this week after some playtesting. Big fan of permission control, took some inspiration from DHamlin's list.
Just want to throw it out there that Mortarpod is even more efficient when used alongside cards like Doomed Traveler. Won me the game once - shot the dude for 1 with the Traveler then flew above all his blockers and threw the flyer for the final 2 points of damage.
Midnight Haunting is not nearly as good of a three drop as Blade Splicer or Mentor of the Meek. Not even close. Especially without anthem effects (Intangible Virtue especially). Even with the anthem effects, I'd rather play a Blade Splicer. Cutting Mentor of the Meek for Midnight Haunting sounds like a horrible, horrible idea.
After more testing, I've edited my decklist a bit to take out the mana dorks and focus on a slower but more consistent strategy. Mana dorks are very, very bad in this meta. They die to so much removal, including day of judgment/slagstorm/etc. Rather than exploding right from the get go, I think the better strategy is to play consistent and grind your opponent out with pseudo card advantage with tokens. So far, here's the list, it still has 4 slots:
I'm thinking about Day of Judgment. The more I test against aggro the more I realize how important it is, but as of right now I have a removal package of 3 oblivion ring and 2 beast within. Do I need the day of judgment? In testing, I did many times and lost because I just couldn't come back from certain board positions. With taking out all of my one drops, Doomed Traveler seems a bit more enticing at least to test out, but I've always been really underwhelmed by him. Still haven't tested him though. Any ideas or input?
Your deck is solid! However, I'll give you my feedback:
Cut down your mana dorks just a tad, and try to run some Rampant Growths instead. Your playgroup isn't wrong in the mana dudes being bad, but they're not that bad. You really want to hit 4 mana on turn 3. So having ways to get there consistently is important. Cut down 1-2 Mentors. He's great in this deck, but don't go overboard. You only need one on the field to benefit. You should try and mix up your removal and have O-Ring and BW if possible. I prefer BW, as this deck cares less about a 3/3.
Also, consider these cards for your list: Midnight Hauntiing: Instant speed creature production is pretty freaking good. At 3 CMC you're sitting on mana for BW OR this card, and keeps them on their toes.
Intangible Virtue: Makes our tokens (the namesake of the deck) buff as hell. Really good. I'd contend this is near auto-include in most lists. Also a more consistent way to buff our dudes than Mikaeus, who's slow and clunky.
Beast Within: Instant speed removal that hits ANYTHING.
Day of Judgement: This card mainboard is a life saver. Sometimes you're getting overwhelmed by aggro and just need an out. This deck rebounds very well after DoJ, especially with lots of walkers and cards like Hero of Bladehold and Blade Splicer.
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite: A powerful 1-of, and Relentless lets us grab this dude from our deck. He will steal games if he's out for too long.
Thanks for the input!
I started out with all of those cards in my list, minus a bunch that are in the list now. I didn't like day of judgment, but it could've just been the meta I was testing against - mostly control with a rampy deck. I also found Beast Within to be vastly inferior to Oblivion Ring. I don't find myself ever really needing to kill lands, and lands are the only things O-ring doesn't hit. I don't find the instant speed of Beast Within to be very significant in this deck, and I hate giving my opponent a very nice 3/3 body to block with. It kills all of my little weenie tokens and creatures except for Hero and Geist-Honored Monk.
Midnight Haunting is underwhelming in my opinion. I'd much rather get Blade Splicer or Mentor of the Meek as my three drops, they just do WAY more than 2 little 1/1 flyers. I'd much rather draw a bunch of cards or have a 1/1 and a 3/3 first striker.
Intangible Virtue... I honestly did like this a little bit, but I really don't think it's as good as an auto-include. Is it really as good as Hero of Bladehold (definitely an auto-include)? I don't think so, personally. With my version of the deck, running 8 mana dudes, the strategy is generally turn 1 mana dude, turn 2 three drop. If I don't hit that draw, I like to play Shrine, I don't want to slow myself down by playing an enchantment that does absolutely nothing to my board (unless I play it WITH creatures out, in which case I already should've been ahead, and that's one less card in my hand that could be more dudes to play). I never had a moment in any of the 30 or so games I played with Intangible Virtue in my deck where I felt like it was a good card, honestly. It seems good on paper, but in practice it was slow, clunky, and insignificant. This might just be one of those cards that's completely up to opinion - as for me, I'm not digging it.
I think the best number for Mentors is 4. I never drew him too much, or was disappointed by drawing multiples of him. Hell, I was happy to draw multiples of him. The first Mentor usually eats removal, anyway. I don't think you can play less than 4 Mentors and truly benefit from having him in your deck. He's absolutely ridiculous in this deck.
As for Rampant Growth vs mana dudes, I do agree that a Rampant Growth means a definite 4 mana on turn 3 (and 5 on turn 4), rather than mana dudes which eat geistflames and gutshots and all sorts of removal. I'm willing to test it out. The thing with that though is that forests and plains can't attack - playing overrun with 3 mana dudes and some tokens out was usually game in testing, and if those 3 mana dudes were lands, it wouldn't be game. Sometimes not even overrun - the gavony township gets there.
I'm really interested in this deck. Been testing it a lot and loving it, it's really fun and seems effective. Got states coming up this Saturday, and I plan on sleeving up some version of this list for it:
Going back and forth between running Shrines and not running Shrines, or running them as a 2-3 of. What do you guys think? More of a mana dude rampy version. A guy who wins almost every tournament he enters (and plays a version of this deck) from my play group keeps telling me the mana dudes version is bad in this format, but I like it too much to give it up.
Here's my current list:
4 Footlight Fiend
4 Gutterbones
2 Grim Initiate
4 Dreadhorde Butcher
4 Priest of Forgotten Gods
4 Cruel Celebrant
4 Judith, the Scourge Diva
4 Plaguecrafter
2 God-Eternal Bontu
3 Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord
3 Heartfire
Lands - 22
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Swamp
3 Tibalt, Rakish Instigator
2 Kaya's Wrath
4 Tithe Taker
3 Tocatli Honor Guard
3 Orzhov Enforcer
Some cards that I've tried running but have cut for various reasons are Hero of Precinct One, Hunted Witness, Mayhem Devil, Midnight Reaper, Spark Harvest, and Bolas's Citadel. This list right now, I think, is performing the best in general against most decks. Main gameplan with this list is all-in aggro while using Priest of Forgotten Gods as a card advantage engine. With Judith and/or Footlight Fiend out you can almost always activate Priest and kill multiple things on their side of the board by pinging down their smaller creatures so they have to sacrifice their bigger ones. Or you can just go straight to the face with the damage and end the game outright, especially with Heartfire.
I have also been tinkering around with Orzhov as a more midrange list with Seraph of the Scales, Midnight Reaper, and Oketra - I like that list a lot too but I think Mardu has been performing better in general. This Mardu list, if left unanswered, ends the game by turn 5 pretty much every time, and has the ability to grind a bit later into the game with card advantage and explosive plays from Priest, Sorin, and Bontu.
This deck is particularly really good against Mono Red and other aggro decks, and plays well against midrange decks as well. Against mono red and other aggro, we can match their aggression while getting an advantage through lifegain and trading off our creatures and getting more out of the trades than they do. Against midrange, the deck can either go under it with early aggression and get enough of a lead that they'll have a hard time coming back and then we can hopefully close out the game with a Heartfire or Bontu. Otherwise, the deck can deal with midgame threats decently, especially if Priest of Forgotten Gods sticks. Control is a lot harder for this deck though.
Here's my current list:
4 Footlight Fiend
4 Gutterbones
2 Grim Initiate
4 Dreadhorde Butcher
4 Priest of Forgotten Gods
4 Cruel Celebrant
4 Judith, the Scourge Diva
4 Plaguecrafter
2 God-Eternal Bontu
3 Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord
3 Heartfire
Lands
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Swamp
3 Tibalt, Rakish Instigator
2 Kaya's Wrath
4 Tithe Taker
3 Tocatli Honor Guard
3 Orzhov Enforcer
Some cards that I've tried running but have cut for various reasons are Hero of Precinct One, Hunted Witness, Mayhem Devil, Midnight Reaper, Spark Harvest, and Bolas's Citadel. This list right now, I think, is performing the best in general against most decks. Main gameplan with this list is all-in aggro while using Priest of Forgotten Gods as a card advantage engine. With Judith and/or Footlight Fiend out you can almost always activate Priest and kill multiple things on their side of the board by pinging down their smaller creatures so they have to sacrifice their bigger ones. Or you can just go straight to the face with the damage and end the game outright, especially with Heartfire.
I have also been tinkering around with Orzhov as a more midrange list with Seraph of the Scales, Midnight Reaper, and Oketra - I like that list a lot too but I think Mardu has been performing better in general. This Mardu list, if left unanswered, ends the game by turn 5 pretty much every time, and has the ability to grind a bit later into the game with card advantage and explosive plays from Priest, Sorin, and Bontu.
This deck is particularly really good against Mono Red and other aggro decks, and plays well against midrange decks as well. Against mono red and other aggro, we can match their aggression while getting an advantage through lifegain and trading off our creatures and getting more out of the trades than they do. Against midrange, the deck can either go under it with early aggression and get enough of a lead that they'll have a hard time coming back and then we can hopefully close out the game with a Heartfire or Bontu. Otherwise, the deck can deal with midgame threats decently, especially if Priest of Forgotten Gods sticks. Control is a lot harder for this deck though.
Polukranos is way more resilient, kills dudes and gets HUGE, and is a mana sink for all of your mana dorks to pump into. He's also way above the curve as a 5/5 for 4 that can come out on turn 3 very easily in this deck. Even on turn 4 he's above the curve.
Isn't trading that guy for a Courser actually a good trade for you? Courser will be netting your opponent life and free card advantage; the shaman is brittle, and you're really only drawing cards with him after you've run out of gas (post turn 5-6 probably), if you're drawing cards with him earlier than that then you're wasting turns and not really playing the deck correctly, ESPECIALLY if you're already going for a more lean, low mana cost more aggressive version of the deck. In the end, if trading our 4 drop for their 3 drop is a good trade for us, why are we running 4 drops that are worse than 3 drops?
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Stomping Grounds
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Loam Lion
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Snapcaster Mage
Spells - 17
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Mutagenic Growth
4 Tribal Flames
I've tested Knight of the Reliquary and Noble Hierarch in place of Loam Lion and Kird Ape, and turn 2 Geist/Knight is really, really good, but so is turn 1 Nacatl/Ape/Lion > turn 2 Goyf > turn 3 Geist, or some Snapcaster > Bolt/Path shenanigans. Geist definitely outclasses Knight here, and I think going for a more aggressive strategy with the ape/lion is more effective than the mana dork in this deck.
3 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Mystery
2 Shivan Reef
2 Mana Confluence
4 Frontier Bivouac
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Heir of the Wilds
4 Savage Knuckleblade
2 Boon Satyr
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Ashcloud Phoenix
2 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Crater's Claws
Instant (6)
3 Temur Charm
3 Lightning Strike
Planeswalker (2)
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
I've found that with this manabase, I'm having a hard time consisitently getting to double red mana for Sarkhan, Ashcloud Phoenix, and Stormbreath. I've also tested the same list with less Yavimaya Coasts and more Temples of Abandon and this helps colors, but as discussed and expected, that slows down the deck so much to the point where hitting your drops on the tempo you want (turn 1 Elvish Mystic, turn 2 Heir/Rattleclaw Mystic, turn 2-3 Knuckleblade) is a lot less consistent. I found that Elvish Mystic, in a version with more than 6 tap lands, is honestly pretty useless. Even at 6 tap lands it's a stretch. Maybe the answer is to just up the Mana Confluence count to 4 and go all out with it? Really just wish there were more options for G/R untapped lands, right now the only thing that kind of does that is Wooded Foothills, and even then it won't give us both colors at the same time.
I'm also considering cutting Ashcloud Phoenix in favor of something else; it's been kind of underwhelming in my testing. I see you guys saying it's really strong, but it just hasn't been performing for me. Maybe I'm not using it correctly. Can someone give me a rundown - when do I play it for its mana cost, when do I play it as a morph, etc? If I cut it, I'd go up to 4 Boon Satyrs and maybe run a Chandra or something.
The Lightning Strike in the current list is in testing in place of the 3 Stubborn Denials I started with. In my local meta, Stubborn Denials were okay, but not amazing, and I found that when it was in my hand and I asked myself if it would have been better as a Lightning Strike, I said yes most of the time. So we'll see how that goes. But with Lightning Strike in and Stubborn Denial out, the need to get blue mana goes down and the need for red mana goes up a bit.
Here's my current list:
4 Radiant Fountain
5 Swamp
4 Temple of Deceit
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
7 Island
4 Dismal Backwater
Creature (2)
2 Pearl Lake Ancient
Sorcery (4)
4 Despise
Instant (28)
1 AEtherspouts
3 Bile Blight
4 Dig Through Time
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dissipate
4 Dissolve
1 Empty the Pits
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Jace's Ingenuity
2 Negate
2 Nullify
1x Bile Blight
1x Disdainful Stroke
4x Jorubai Murk Lurker
2x Negate
2x Nullify
3x Pharika's Cure
2x Silence the Believers
I see people talking about Perilous Vault. I haven't tested it out at all, but I feel like it seems clunky.
It's legendary, so you can't have more than one out at a time, and even so it's kind of a dead card in a red deck wins kind of deck - you're not focused on board presence with RDW, you're focused on rushing down your opponent's life as fast as possible. I feel like playing around getting your board set up, getting multiple creatures out, and sticking them instead of just going to the face constantly is going about it with the wrong mindset.
4 Radiant Fountain
5 Swamp
4 Temple of Deceit
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 Island
4 Dismal Backwater
Creature (2)
2 Pearl Lake Ancient
Sorcery (4)
4 Despise
Instant (29)
2 AEtherspouts
3 Bile Blight
4 Dig Through Time
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dissipate
4 Dissolve
1 Empty the Pits
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Jace's Ingenuity
2 Negate
2 Nullify
1x Bile Blight
1x Disdainful Stroke
4x Jorubai Murk Lurker
2x Negate
2x Nullify
3x Pharika's Cure
2x Silence the Believers
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Gavony Township
7 Forest
5 Plains
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Blade Splicer
4 Hero of Bladehold
2 Geist-Honored Monk
3 Elspeth Tirel
2 Garruk Relentless
3 Beast Within
4 Shrine of Loyal Legions
1 Overrun
4 Midnight Haunting
My FNM deck for tonight. Been through loooots of testing and altering.
After more testing, I've edited my decklist a bit to take out the mana dorks and focus on a slower but more consistent strategy. Mana dorks are very, very bad in this meta. They die to so much removal, including day of judgment/slagstorm/etc. Rather than exploding right from the get go, I think the better strategy is to play consistent and grind your opponent out with pseudo card advantage with tokens. So far, here's the list, it still has 4 slots:
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Gavony Township
6 Forest
7 Plains
4 Viridian Emissary
4 Blade Splicer
4 Mentor of the Meek
4 Hero of Bladehold
1 Geist-Honored Monk
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
3 Elspeth Tirel
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Beast Within
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Shrine of Loyal Legions
1 Overrun
I'm thinking about Day of Judgment. The more I test against aggro the more I realize how important it is, but as of right now I have a removal package of 3 oblivion ring and 2 beast within. Do I need the day of judgment? In testing, I did many times and lost because I just couldn't come back from certain board positions. With taking out all of my one drops, Doomed Traveler seems a bit more enticing at least to test out, but I've always been really underwhelmed by him. Still haven't tested him though. Any ideas or input?
Thanks for the input!
I started out with all of those cards in my list, minus a bunch that are in the list now. I didn't like day of judgment, but it could've just been the meta I was testing against - mostly control with a rampy deck. I also found Beast Within to be vastly inferior to Oblivion Ring. I don't find myself ever really needing to kill lands, and lands are the only things O-ring doesn't hit. I don't find the instant speed of Beast Within to be very significant in this deck, and I hate giving my opponent a very nice 3/3 body to block with. It kills all of my little weenie tokens and creatures except for Hero and Geist-Honored Monk.
Midnight Haunting is underwhelming in my opinion. I'd much rather get Blade Splicer or Mentor of the Meek as my three drops, they just do WAY more than 2 little 1/1 flyers. I'd much rather draw a bunch of cards or have a 1/1 and a 3/3 first striker.
Intangible Virtue... I honestly did like this a little bit, but I really don't think it's as good as an auto-include. Is it really as good as Hero of Bladehold (definitely an auto-include)? I don't think so, personally. With my version of the deck, running 8 mana dudes, the strategy is generally turn 1 mana dude, turn 2 three drop. If I don't hit that draw, I like to play Shrine, I don't want to slow myself down by playing an enchantment that does absolutely nothing to my board (unless I play it WITH creatures out, in which case I already should've been ahead, and that's one less card in my hand that could be more dudes to play). I never had a moment in any of the 30 or so games I played with Intangible Virtue in my deck where I felt like it was a good card, honestly. It seems good on paper, but in practice it was slow, clunky, and insignificant. This might just be one of those cards that's completely up to opinion - as for me, I'm not digging it.
I think the best number for Mentors is 4. I never drew him too much, or was disappointed by drawing multiples of him. Hell, I was happy to draw multiples of him. The first Mentor usually eats removal, anyway. I don't think you can play less than 4 Mentors and truly benefit from having him in your deck. He's absolutely ridiculous in this deck.
As for Rampant Growth vs mana dudes, I do agree that a Rampant Growth means a definite 4 mana on turn 3 (and 5 on turn 4), rather than mana dudes which eat geistflames and gutshots and all sorts of removal. I'm willing to test it out. The thing with that though is that forests and plains can't attack - playing overrun with 3 mana dudes and some tokens out was usually game in testing, and if those 3 mana dudes were lands, it wouldn't be game. Sometimes not even overrun - the gavony township gets there.
I'm really interested in this deck. Been testing it a lot and loving it, it's really fun and seems effective. Got states coming up this Saturday, and I plan on sleeving up some version of this list for it:
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Gavony Township
6 Forest
6 Plains
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Blade Splicer
4 Mentor of the Meek
4 Hero of Bladehold
1 Geist-Honored Monk
2 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
3 Elspeth Tirel
2 Garruk Relentless
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Shrine of Loyal Legions
1 Overrun
Going back and forth between running Shrines and not running Shrines, or running them as a 2-3 of. What do you guys think? More of a mana dude rampy version. A guy who wins almost every tournament he enters (and plays a version of this deck) from my play group keeps telling me the mana dudes version is bad in this format, but I like it too much to give it up.