Really great analysis wtwlf, I had the logic backwards in my head of , the only time you get to 7 lands is vs control and by that point you've lost the game... So it doesn't matter. But maybe that's not true.. If it's not true, than an extra lategame threat + card draw engine is exactly the type of card that will get you back in the game.
I rechecked this thread because I've been thinking long and hard about nissa in a small-medium powered cube (I think she's great in large cubes, as I explained in an earlier post) and eveytime I think about her, the better she seems in my eyes. Interesting that seems to be the trend of the thread too.
Will at least give her a test run at this point, and label her as an unlikely include.
1. Eidolon > Gore-house chainwalker > Hordeling outburst in powered cube,
in unpowered, hordeling a lot better not sure if its enough to get out of third
Salmo, re-read the conversation. I agree, Relic seeker isn't close to modern playable. We were discussing spairy's hypothetical stoneforge like creature.
"Same goes for modern, where equipment is not what you want to be drawing, even though there are strong equipment in the format"
I disagree with that statement, But don't want to derail thread so wont argue the topic anymore after this.
Batterskull and Sword of light and shadow are solid cards in the format. They may not be well positioned at the moment, but the second the metagame tilts remotely in the fair direction, they are great cards that have seen main deck and sideboard play on their own.
They are late game cards, so you can't overload your deck with them, but having a card that draws the one you want upon ETB and gives you a creature that can beat down (and blink for value)... for 2 mana, is bananas... It's different than putting the equipment blindly in your deck.
IE In legacy , Jitte isn't played main deck in any fair deck that doesn't have stoneforge mystic, but add in the tutor and it's an auto auto include.
I'm not a big fan of this. I don't know where exactly it will fall on the list of two drops for me, but it's pretty low.
Honestly, I think a 1W 2/2 that tutors an equipment when it EOTB but doesn't give you the SFM cheat it into play ability is a strong, but fair card. You can temper it in standard by making sure you don't print any equips in the Sword/Jitte power level area. In modern, swords are too slow, and in legacy the much better SFM is already legal.
And that would be a really nice cube card.
I don't know what your metric of fair is, but tutoring for either a sword catered to the matchup/batterskull on a 2/2 body is pretty absurd in modern and is IMO strong enough that people would discuss a ban.
It's like greater than a 2 for 1, for 2 mana heh.
Swords/Batterskull are a bit slow in modern, but play them in a deck that can stall the game, and combine it with the card advantage this guy generates.... Fair isn't the first word that would come to mind.
So, I'm debating on adding languish to my cube, but I can only justify it if I cut consuming vapors.
While I think consuming vapors is right around the chopping block level in power, it being the only life gain in black made me very hesitant to cut it. UB control for example has no way to gain life. Think it's a big slam against the archetype. But maybe languish is better enough that it doesnt matter? Already running 2, 2 mana edicts and liliana of the veil.
Question: In a typical UB control deck, against Heavy red agro with a lot of burn spells (say 10-12 creatures, rest burn), would you rather have consuming vapors? or languish. How close is it? Assume you already have between 1 and 2 wrath effects in the deck and ~3 cheap removal spells Keep in mind those creatures will be cheap creatures with low toughness.
At the moment this card isn't close to good enough.
It might all change post return-to-zendikar as it seems clear to me they are pushing a landfall mechanic very hard in that set.
If a fastbond deck can ever be supported and some better landfall payoffs get printed, this might be a decent enabler.
Card is garbage day for cube. D- you lose. 0% chance of inclusion.
This guys upside is to turn from a 1 drop that would be unplayable in normal limited, to a mediocore cube 2 drop on connect.
Compared to relic hunter, this guys worst case scenario is much worse, and his best case scenario is sooo MUCH worse...
And while I think relic hunter is a great card, I still don't know if he's going to crack the top 30.
My limited experience with timetwister was that it was very narrow, and the cards needed to break it in half were super high picks anyway (or as a splash in red agro), so not a good card for a draft experience.
This is clearly worse... so pass.
BUT, I assume this is an auto include in storm-supported cubes?
That is true, it's more a question of removal in cube
"should I remove this now or play a blocker that they can potentially remove" "Should I leave 1 , 2 or 3 blockers back on defense".
Should I attack with my 3/3 flier? I have the ground locked up, but what if he has ajani, caller of pride? I know its in his deck etc.
I'm not a big fan of the card because of how opressivly powerful against a few decks , while being very mediocore against a bunch of others.
The average of those situations makes it powerful enough to maindeckable, but it makes for uninteresting games of magic.
Try to avoid low interactive cards whenever possible, since powered cubes have more than enough "sigh nice tripple mox balance -> recall" situations for my palette.
I think this is ALMOST on par with damnation and a small chance it's >=.
There aren't THAT many 5+ toughness creatures in cube that wraths are great against anyway. Constructing your deck to live through the wrath I think maybe even gives it the edge over damnation... Although Im leaning towards that being no.
Silumgar, consecrated sphinx, Titans, Tasigur.. Lots of black control cards that this doesnt kill. Amazing with Abysal persuctor or Desecration if people still run those.
Not in the market for a third wrath in black, but if I was, this would be it, no doubt.
A 2cc bear that threatens so much more.
Even when she doesn't connect, she forces your opponents to play around cards you COULD have , in fear of the upside of you connecting.
This forces them to play bad some of the time, and gets you value.
I think people are confusing the median case scenario with the "average performance". Maybe the median case scenario is a bear that makes your opponent play slightly bad. But the upside is so far above par for 2 drop that you don't have to connect 50%+ of the time for it to be worth it.
We are playing in a format with skullclamp, jitte, batterskull, sword of fire and ice and a high concentration of good equipment...
"+1/+1 counter and Search your deck for Broken equipment card catered to the matchup" im guessing is better than draw 2 cards on average.
1. Requires equipment to be playable, thus too narrow
-I would never play relic hunter without equipment, yes, but I believe it's playable with only one piece of equipment. Putting it into playable range is really not that hard. 75%+ of my white decks have at least 1 piece of equipment.
Unlike stoneforge mystic, I actually think relic hunter is BETTER than stoneforge if you only have one piece of equipment that isn't premium. She's not exciting for sure, but she makes for playable curve filler in more agressive oriented decks.
The only thing you need to be careful of is if you have too many conditional 2 drop creatures so you can still support agro. However, the conditionality of relic hunter on equipment is partially mitigated by the fact she is playable in good stuff decks with premium equipment. The same cannot be said for many other white two drops.
2. Not a good top deck
-Id argue shes definitely at her best on curve, but shes not like some of the other extreme examples that REALLY need to come down early in all situations (Champion of the perish, experiment one etc). How poor of a top deck she is, is highly deck dependent.
In a deck built to push a little longer than all-in, I wouldn't mind dropping her on turn 4-5. The value she can generate at that point is still significant in the right deck, and doesn't take many turns to accomplish.
First I was thinking about this card in white weenie and wasn't sure about it... White weenie generally wants to go all in on the board and swarm the opponent. Lacking evasion and having a delayed/contingent effect, is non-complimentary to that strategy.
However, in a deck with a lot of removal, a tempo deck or a good stuff deck, she seems really good. (geist of st.traft deck)
Being playable in white weenie, and good in tempo decks for a comfortable mana cost of 1W, means this is a clear test.
Prediction:
I expect her to fall around the soltari power range (I consider them among the better white 2 drops). She requires 2 solid pieces of equipment to reach that power range, but is playable in more decks. Her upside is higher, but her average case scenario is slightly lower. In a deck with a lot of removal AND Jitte/Batterskull, I'd expect her to be a strong second place amongst white 2 drops (behind stoneforge obviously).
I am only mildly confident in my evaluation. I'd be surprised if she was worse than my evaluation, but not that surprised if she was slightly better. Looking forward to testing.
fwiw, I think replacing siege-gang commander with the nalaars is a bad idea.
They both contribute to interesting synergies of the same type. Most of those synergies are under-supported in red, so having an additional option is very welcome.
IMO, Siege-gang is the most important red 5 drop in most cubes due to it's synergies. It's base power level is such you can run it in good stuff decks , synergy decks AND curve top agro deck.
FWIW, I think thundermaw hellkite is the most powerful 5-drop, but it's less important to the cube due to the lack of synergies.
I rechecked this thread because I've been thinking long and hard about nissa in a small-medium powered cube (I think she's great in large cubes, as I explained in an earlier post) and eveytime I think about her, the better she seems in my eyes. Interesting that seems to be the trend of the thread too.
Will at least give her a test run at this point, and label her as an unlikely include.
in unpowered, hordeling a lot better not sure if its enough to get out of third
2. Surrak > Ascetic
3. Inquisition > Despise
"Same goes for modern, where equipment is not what you want to be drawing, even though there are strong equipment in the format"
I disagree with that statement, But don't want to derail thread so wont argue the topic anymore after this.
Batterskull and Sword of light and shadow are solid cards in the format. They may not be well positioned at the moment, but the second the metagame tilts remotely in the fair direction, they are great cards that have seen main deck and sideboard play on their own.
They are late game cards, so you can't overload your deck with them, but having a card that draws the one you want upon ETB and gives you a creature that can beat down (and blink for value)... for 2 mana, is bananas... It's different than putting the equipment blindly in your deck.
IE In legacy , Jitte isn't played main deck in any fair deck that doesn't have stoneforge mystic, but add in the tutor and it's an auto auto include.
I don't know what your metric of fair is, but tutoring for either a sword catered to the matchup/batterskull on a 2/2 body is pretty absurd in modern and is IMO strong enough that people would discuss a ban.
It's like greater than a 2 for 1, for 2 mana heh.
Swords/Batterskull are a bit slow in modern, but play them in a deck that can stall the game, and combine it with the card advantage this guy generates.... Fair isn't the first word that would come to mind.
While I think consuming vapors is right around the chopping block level in power, it being the only life gain in black made me very hesitant to cut it. UB control for example has no way to gain life. Think it's a big slam against the archetype. But maybe languish is better enough that it doesnt matter? Already running 2, 2 mana edicts and liliana of the veil.
Question: In a typical UB control deck, against Heavy red agro with a lot of burn spells (say 10-12 creatures, rest burn), would you rather have consuming vapors? or languish. How close is it? Assume you already have between 1 and 2 wrath effects in the deck and ~3 cheap removal spells Keep in mind those creatures will be cheap creatures with low toughness.
It might all change post return-to-zendikar as it seems clear to me they are pushing a landfall mechanic very hard in that set.
If a fastbond deck can ever be supported and some better landfall payoffs get printed, this might be a decent enabler.
But as of now, super easy pass
This guys upside is to turn from a 1 drop that would be unplayable in normal limited, to a mediocore cube 2 drop on connect.
Compared to relic hunter, this guys worst case scenario is much worse, and his best case scenario is sooo MUCH worse...
And while I think relic hunter is a great card, I still don't know if he's going to crack the top 30.
This is clearly worse... so pass.
BUT, I assume this is an auto include in storm-supported cubes?
"should I remove this now or play a blocker that they can potentially remove" "Should I leave 1 , 2 or 3 blockers back on defense".
Should I attack with my 3/3 flier? I have the ground locked up, but what if he has ajani, caller of pride? I know its in his deck etc.
The average of those situations makes it powerful enough to maindeckable, but it makes for uninteresting games of magic.
Try to avoid low interactive cards whenever possible, since powered cubes have more than enough "sigh nice tripple mox balance -> recall" situations for my palette.
There aren't THAT many 5+ toughness creatures in cube that wraths are great against anyway. Constructing your deck to live through the wrath I think maybe even gives it the edge over damnation... Although Im leaning towards that being no.
Silumgar, consecrated sphinx, Titans, Tasigur.. Lots of black control cards that this doesnt kill. Amazing with Abysal persuctor or Desecration if people still run those.
Not in the market for a third wrath in black, but if I was, this would be it, no doubt.
Even when she doesn't connect, she forces your opponents to play around cards you COULD have , in fear of the upside of you connecting.
This forces them to play bad some of the time, and gets you value.
I think people are confusing the median case scenario with the "average performance". Maybe the median case scenario is a bear that makes your opponent play slightly bad. But the upside is so far above par for 2 drop that you don't have to connect 50%+ of the time for it to be worth it.
We are playing in a format with skullclamp, jitte, batterskull, sword of fire and ice and a high concentration of good equipment...
"+1/+1 counter and Search your deck for Broken equipment card catered to the matchup" im guessing is better than draw 2 cards on average.
1. Requires equipment to be playable, thus too narrow
-I would never play relic hunter without equipment, yes, but I believe it's playable with only one piece of equipment. Putting it into playable range is really not that hard. 75%+ of my white decks have at least 1 piece of equipment.
Unlike stoneforge mystic, I actually think relic hunter is BETTER than stoneforge if you only have one piece of equipment that isn't premium. She's not exciting for sure, but she makes for playable curve filler in more agressive oriented decks.
The only thing you need to be careful of is if you have too many conditional 2 drop creatures so you can still support agro. However, the conditionality of relic hunter on equipment is partially mitigated by the fact she is playable in good stuff decks with premium equipment. The same cannot be said for many other white two drops.
2. Not a good top deck
-Id argue shes definitely at her best on curve, but shes not like some of the other extreme examples that REALLY need to come down early in all situations (Champion of the perish, experiment one etc). How poor of a top deck she is, is highly deck dependent.
In a deck built to push a little longer than all-in, I wouldn't mind dropping her on turn 4-5. The value she can generate at that point is still significant in the right deck, and doesn't take many turns to accomplish.
However, in a deck with a lot of removal, a tempo deck or a good stuff deck, she seems really good. (geist of st.traft deck)
Being playable in white weenie, and good in tempo decks for a comfortable mana cost of 1W, means this is a clear test.
Prediction:
I expect her to fall around the soltari power range (I consider them among the better white 2 drops). She requires 2 solid pieces of equipment to reach that power range, but is playable in more decks. Her upside is higher, but her average case scenario is slightly lower. In a deck with a lot of removal AND Jitte/Batterskull, I'd expect her to be a strong second place amongst white 2 drops (behind stoneforge obviously).
I am only mildly confident in my evaluation. I'd be surprised if she was worse than my evaluation, but not that surprised if she was slightly better. Looking forward to testing.
They both contribute to interesting synergies of the same type. Most of those synergies are under-supported in red, so having an additional option is very welcome.
IMO, Siege-gang is the most important red 5 drop in most cubes due to it's synergies. It's base power level is such you can run it in good stuff decks , synergy decks AND curve top agro deck.
FWIW, I think thundermaw hellkite is the most powerful 5-drop, but it's less important to the cube due to the lack of synergies.