I think this might actually be slightly better than Shadowspear in Saga deck because:
1. It can give the summoning sick Karnstruct haste, which is a huge beating - get to swing with 2 large Karnstructs immediately rather than 1
2. Being 1 to equip rather than 2 is a big difference - means greater probability of immediately being able to equip after fetching with Saga.
I think this might actually be slightly better than Shadowspear in Saga deck because:
1. It can give the summoning sick Karnstruct haste, which is a huge beating - get to swing with 2 large Karnstructs immediately rather than 1
2. Being 1 to equip rather than 2 is a big difference - means greater probability of immediately being able to equip after fetching with Saga.
I strongly disagree that this is a better urzas target than shadowspear in most saga/artifact decks.
hasted damage is way less important than Lifelink and trample on a big karnstruct token.
there’s exceptions, but that’s mostly for decks where lightning greaves is a great card.. e.g show and tell , tinker, eureka style decks that want to haste a blightsteel/eldrazi before the opponent can untap.
Yeah, I like this.
Lower on the totem pole relative to current green 3's, but it's a solid agressive splashable 3 drop for green that has a sub-counters theme (but doesn't require it).
I've been looking to shift green more agressive and this card could be part of a new wave of cards that hopefully take green in that direction.
Shuffle effects are a pretty big deal for brainstorm. The lack of them, can demote a card from one of the best cards ever printed, restricted in vintage level quality, into simply a "good card".
If you are digging to a combo and brick on your brainstorm, you effectively got no deeper to the combo than if you played a U: draw a card.
However, getting 3 cards deeper in a single turn can often get you to a type of card that you are looking for.
There's also additional utility like putting lands on the top of your deck for courser/dark confidant,
putting tutor targets back from your hand to in your libary for tinker/natural order, protecting your hand from thoughtseize,
setting up miracles.
With zero shuffle effects in your whole deck, sleight of hand is prob similar power level, maybe a little better?
Not confident about their relative strength. With a couple shuffle effects, brainstorm blows it out of the water.
The recent addition of the land cyclers have put more cubeable shufflers in the format.
Fwiw when I say “blue deck” I mean a deck where blue is a primary or significant secondary color.
There are plenty of blue shells that are pretty creature heavy where Seedshark isn't idea: UR Kiki-Twin / UW blink / UB Recurring Nightmare / UG Survival / many UX tempo shells / a good amount of artifacts matters decks are getting creature heavy / etc.
I see oath of druids as a near pointless comparison. Oath decks in cubes I draft come together like 1/100 decks… and even if they came together more (as is clearly the case in some cubes here). Shark typhoon is not a good card in them, it’s a low priority playable.
YMMV, but Oath of Druids comes together in my cube all the time since I heavily support cheaty face (and Oath of Druids is probably the deck I force the most). Shark Typhoon is often a card that will make the deck since it's a cantrip that can buy time or steal initiative / monarch in a pinch.
I think chrome host is better than all the other spells matters cards.
The highest average case performance and only less upside than mentor.
This I generally agree with, the only spells matters card I think that is better than Seedshark is Third Path Iconoclast. Mentor has a high ceiling, but its average case scenario in a singleton environment is so bad that I ended up cutting it from my cube. Shark is pretty much everything I wanted mentor to be in terms of defensive prowess and generating value through a sweeper.
Yeah I dont think i'd play mentor in an unpowered cube tbh. Reasonable cut.
I may be over-estimating the % of blue decks chrome host is good in, but high confidence >60%, low confidence ~75-80%.
It's rare I play a deck where >25% of my nonlands are blue and there are more creatures than non-creaturs.
Unlike mentor/pyromancer, you don't need to "go off" with shark for it to be a strong card because of how good the body is. A few 4+ CMC non-creature spells and a deck that's ~50%+ non-creature spells is really all that's needed.
With Tolarian Academy and/or multiple alternative casting cards like FOW/Pyrokenesis/Fireblast/Leyline binding it can be really powerful.
My experience with spells matters payoffs such as Young Pyromancer / Monastery Mentor is they are incredibly play draw dependent. TBH I dread having to play UR spells matters/ tempo in limited as I've observed win rate discrepancies as far as 70/30 (Khans/ Brother's War Limited for example).
I found the problem with this card extends even further that this effect itself is also very feast/ famine. For every game you get to Sea Chrome + Force of Will, you'll have games where you have to pay 2-4 mana just to have a 1/1 and a 2/2 on the field.
I've found that we have enough spells matters payoffs that we could cut this for the next set.
I think chrome host is better than all the other spells matters cards.
The highest average case performance and only less upside than mentor.
Fwiw when I say “blue deck” I mean a deck where blue is a primary or significant secondary color.
Splashing for a couple cards isn’t a blue deck.
Chrome host is an engine, typhoon is a flexible value card.
As a rule of thumb I value engines over fixed value. Upsides scale exponentially.
the most under-appreciated quality of chrome host is the body. A 2/4 flying is such a good blocker. Blue decks are on the back foot more than the front foot. I think the importance of defensive value of blue cards are greatly underestimated on average. Toughness matters.
Yes they are both main deckable in many similar decks, shark typhoon in a few more. Chrome host is a higher pick (is my argument) in the significant majority of them.
Any non-creature spell is going to be better than a cheap creature spell in oath of druids. Oath of druids rarely comes together in the majority of commonly played cubes and shark typhoon is a low priority playable in it.
I'm not confident in my appraisal, but I think it could be a "funsies" archetype that mostly gets ignored in the draft but occasionally comes together into something original/sweet/competitive.
You probably need ~3-4 high quality fatties to make it work as well as a couple other cheat spells in the deck for redundancy.
You'd also want to add a few token makers to the cube that are maybe 95% good enough for cube at the moment.
The power level when it all comes together is likely high enough to be a viable cube strategy, but it will be too inconsistent
overall for a maximum competitive cube environment.
If you are simply looking to do fun, different stuff in a mildly competitive enviornment, it's worth a shot.
Yeah occult epiphany is awsome and probably better than both.
FWIW , I’m near 100% confident that chrome host seedshark is a higher pick than shark typhoon in the significant majority of blue decks. Though, I'm slightly biased by it over-performing for me in multiple drafts recently and shark typhoon was cut from LSV's cube, which is what I've been primarily drafting these days.
WOW, have times changed. The addition of monarch/initiative and power crept creatures has brought creature decks to the front and center where fury can really shine.
Fury was a top tier red card the second it was printed, well before initiative was even a thing. It did not need any future printings or meta shifts for it to suddenly become front and center. The typical reaction was "wow, this card is a lot better than I originally gave it credit for", not "wow, this card went from being mid to top tier over time due to initiative and other recent printings."
You paraphrased using quotations then mis-represented my point. That wasn’t my claim.
Yes it was top tier the moment it was printed and it also got much better with the way the format shifted as new cards got added.
Both are true. I thought it would be good at the time it was spoiled and said it was "much more impressive than I thought it would be" in a field heavy with draw-go-blue/artifact ramp/reanimator..
My points early in this thread (which were wrong) , were based on my old paradigm that red agro is an all-in deck filled with jackal pups and burn.
In a meta with a lot of blue decks, reanimator decks and artifact ramp decks, fury is less impressive (though still much more impressive than I thought it would be).
WOW, have times changed. The addition of monarch/initiative and power crept creatures has brought creature decks to the front and center where fury can really shine.
Chonky red has also gotten way better. Inti, gut, bombardiers, bonecrusher giant, laelia, ragavan, fable of the mirror breaker, many great splashable 4's, boros 5's...
I used to laugh at the idea of including pyrokenesis and flame slash in my cube and now I think they are better than all the 2 mana+ red burn spells. Red creatures can truly hold their weight now.
Wow, I like chrome host seedshark the most of the 3 by a lot.
it’s so good.. the 2/4 flying body is a house on defense and exactly what you want to be doing in a slower blue deck that isn’t all in on a combo. The synergies with artifacts are awsome too.
I love to pair it with free pitch spells like FOW/pyrokensis/mine collapse.
I like shark typhoon and happy to have it in my cube, but I find it a bit mana inefficient in a fast powered environment with lots of agressive decks.
mulldrifter is distant last. Would only main deck it with reanimation spells or ephemerate.
I'd say it's a better Cultivate overall. In my experience my green decks running cultivate are base green and looking to fix for splashes with the Cultivate; going from 2G to 1GG feels less taxing for green than it might be for other colours.
The upside of cashing in a dork or ETB value greature (like reclamation sage) feels like a fair trade off for the extra pip.
I Having to sacrifice a creature is definitely worse than pitching a card from your hand,
Is it? I think it's about even. Some effects would much rather sac a thing than pitch a card. In the mid-late game pitching a card is less appealing than sacing an out classed body.
I think the "non-token" clause is a sign it was too good and it had to be toned down a bit.
Yeah saccing a non-token green creature is a much bigger drawback than exiling a green card from your hand for a ramp spell.
Ramp decks depend on speed/tempo and will happily trade a card to be able to cast a more expensive bomb early. Because cultivate is a ramp AND value spell, it wouldn't even come at card disadvantage.
If it had a pitch option instead, it would be very close to a modal spell of a 0 mana rampant growth or a
3 mana cultivate if it were templated that way. Busted.
I think this is only playable in a deck with workshop or academy (and a couple other fringe artifact decks).
I don't agree with this take. I think you're looking at this too much as a mana sink and not enough as a modal 2 drop that can go crazy with token generators. The value of this card doesn't come from how much mana you can pump into it, but with how many tokens your deck can pump out. It's rarely going to scale beyond 5 mana, but that's not unrealistic since green pairs best with this since it has the best combination of ramp and token generation. It's a pretty reasonable 2 drop considering the 5 mana mode it has , this is essentially a different take on Intrepid Adversary really.
ah, I totally mis processed the card. For some reason I only thought it pumped itself on ETB from its own tokens.
that makes it less narrow than I thought (tho still narrow).
I like it in a deck with a high token density as well.
That may push it over the edge into testing territory for me now
I strongly disagree that this is a better urzas target than shadowspear in most saga/artifact decks.
hasted damage is way less important than Lifelink and trample on a big karnstruct token.
there’s exceptions, but that’s mostly for decks where lightning greaves is a great card.. e.g show and tell , tinker, eureka style decks that want to haste a blightsteel/eldrazi before the opponent can untap.
Lower on the totem pole relative to current green 3's, but it's a solid agressive splashable 3 drop for green that has a sub-counters theme (but doesn't require it).
I've been looking to shift green more agressive and this card could be part of a new wave of cards that hopefully take green in that direction.
Looking forward to curve this into inti, seneschal of the sun (or vice versa)
If you are digging to a combo and brick on your brainstorm, you effectively got no deeper to the combo than if you played a U: draw a card.
However, getting 3 cards deeper in a single turn can often get you to a type of card that you are looking for.
There's also additional utility like putting lands on the top of your deck for courser/dark confidant,
putting tutor targets back from your hand to in your libary for tinker/natural order, protecting your hand from thoughtseize,
setting up miracles.
With zero shuffle effects in your whole deck, sleight of hand is prob similar power level, maybe a little better?
Not confident about their relative strength. With a couple shuffle effects, brainstorm blows it out of the water.
The recent addition of the land cyclers have put more cubeable shufflers in the format.
Yeah I dont think i'd play mentor in an unpowered cube tbh. Reasonable cut.
I may be over-estimating the % of blue decks chrome host is good in, but high confidence >60%, low confidence ~75-80%.
It's rare I play a deck where >25% of my nonlands are blue and there are more creatures than non-creaturs.
Unlike mentor/pyromancer, you don't need to "go off" with shark for it to be a strong card because of how good the body is. A few 4+ CMC non-creature spells and a deck that's ~50%+ non-creature spells is really all that's needed.
With Tolarian Academy and/or multiple alternative casting cards like FOW/Pyrokenesis/Fireblast/Leyline binding it can be really powerful.
I think chrome host is better than all the other spells matters cards.
The highest average case performance and only less upside than mentor.
Splashing for a couple cards isn’t a blue deck.
Chrome host is an engine, typhoon is a flexible value card.
As a rule of thumb I value engines over fixed value. Upsides scale exponentially.
the most under-appreciated quality of chrome host is the body. A 2/4 flying is such a good blocker. Blue decks are on the back foot more than the front foot. I think the importance of defensive value of blue cards are greatly underestimated on average. Toughness matters.
Yes they are both main deckable in many similar decks, shark typhoon in a few more. Chrome host is a higher pick (is my argument) in the significant majority of them.
Any non-creature spell is going to be better than a cheap creature spell in oath of druids. Oath of druids rarely comes together in the majority of commonly played cubes and shark typhoon is a low priority playable in it.
You probably need ~3-4 high quality fatties to make it work as well as a couple other cheat spells in the deck for redundancy.
You'd also want to add a few token makers to the cube that are maybe 95% good enough for cube at the moment.
The power level when it all comes together is likely high enough to be a viable cube strategy, but it will be too inconsistent
overall for a maximum competitive cube environment.
If you are simply looking to do fun, different stuff in a mildly competitive enviornment, it's worth a shot.
FWIW , I’m near 100% confident that chrome host seedshark is a higher pick than shark typhoon in the significant majority of blue decks. Though, I'm slightly biased by it over-performing for me in multiple drafts recently and shark typhoon was cut from LSV's cube, which is what I've been primarily drafting these days.
You paraphrased using quotations then mis-represented my point. That wasn’t my claim.
Yes it was top tier the moment it was printed and it also got much better with the way the format shifted as new cards got added.
Both are true. I thought it would be good at the time it was spoiled and said it was "much more impressive than I thought it would be" in a field heavy with draw-go-blue/artifact ramp/reanimator..
In a meta with a lot of blue decks, reanimator decks and artifact ramp decks, fury is less impressive (though still much more impressive than I thought it would be).
WOW, have times changed. The addition of monarch/initiative and power crept creatures has brought creature decks to the front and center where fury can really shine.
Chonky red has also gotten way better. Inti, gut, bombardiers, bonecrusher giant, laelia, ragavan, fable of the mirror breaker, many great splashable 4's, boros 5's...
I used to laugh at the idea of including pyrokenesis and flame slash in my cube and now I think they are better than all the 2 mana+ red burn spells. Red creatures can truly hold their weight now.
it’s so good.. the 2/4 flying body is a house on defense and exactly what you want to be doing in a slower blue deck that isn’t all in on a combo. The synergies with artifacts are awsome too.
I love to pair it with free pitch spells like FOW/pyrokensis/mine collapse.
I like shark typhoon and happy to have it in my cube, but I find it a bit mana inefficient in a fast powered environment with lots of agressive decks.
mulldrifter is distant last. Would only main deck it with reanimation spells or ephemerate.
Yeah saccing a non-token green creature is a much bigger drawback than exiling a green card from your hand for a ramp spell.
Ramp decks depend on speed/tempo and will happily trade a card to be able to cast a more expensive bomb early. Because cultivate is a ramp AND value spell, it wouldn't even come at card disadvantage.
If it had a pitch option instead, it would be very close to a modal spell of a 0 mana rampant growth or a
3 mana cultivate if it were templated that way. Busted.
My instinct was that the extra green pip was barely worth the sac option, but some points here made me re-evaluate.
free spells nearly always play out better than they seem, so I’d be surprised if this was an exception.
The 3-drop utility creature -> sac is prob the most common use case scenario I could see.
Dunno how much better it makes the card than cultivate… prob not much but look forward to being wrong.
ah, I totally mis processed the card. For some reason I only thought it pumped itself on ETB from its own tokens.
that makes it less narrow than I thought (tho still narrow).
I like it in a deck with a high token density as well.
That may push it over the edge into testing territory for me now