MTG Salvation

IT'S ALSO A HORROR AND MAKES HORRORS WHICH DO NOT GET BOUNCED BY THING IN THE ICE.

COMBOOOOOOOO

Quote from noratora »

While we're on the topic of 3 drops, is no one running Silverblade Paladin anymore? That card has been absolutely insane for us. Is it the double white that keeps people away?

Problem with a card like silverblade paladin (and mirran crusader) is that they are very high variance in output.
We all evaluate cards to some degree using anecdotal evidence, and high variance cards, by nature, create a wide range of experiences.. Thus, creating wide range of opinions.

Silverblade paladin has one of the highest damage output ceiling of any 3 drop in cube (maybe the highest if you include equipment?), but it's also the most sensitive to removal.
There are times it'll cause you to get blown out and do nothing, and there are times it will do 18 points of damage in three turns heh.

I have a lot of experience with the card, rate it higher than most people around here.. But still cut it from my cube.

I think this is clearly worse than rabblemaster. Hasted damage output is relevant, as well as total damage output in quick period. 3 toughness is a nice bonus and as such easily worth testing.

Any card that can take over the game at a reasonable rate should be considered and this card looks very solid.

First round of testing for newrakul very positive. Card is gooooood.
It was cast four times and won the game four times.

The highlight was being almost dead on board, running the opponents inferno titan into emrakul, killing a mana elf and a refellos with the inferno titan trigger.. Casting a freshly drawn Garruk Relentless, fighting emrakul with it. It Cost 8 mana that game. It was even more devastating than a hardcast ulamog, the ceaseless hunger would have been.

Another game, got to empty my opponents hand (phantasmal image + trinket mage) -9 my opponents ugin who was 1 turn away from ultimating, erasing his board of bitter blossom + a couple tokens and the cards he had in hand. Cast the opponents magma jet targeting himself, ensuring that the cards he drew couldn't deal with emrakul.

The key insight is how good it is in reanimator decks. In decks that loot or self-mill getting him down to 7-8 mana is a very real possibility and at that mana cost he is busted. It's hard to imagine, but I underestimated how powerful a 13/13 flying,trample protection from instants is
Every keyword is relevant for putting your opponent on a consistent 1-2 turn clock.

It's also hella fun of a puzzle figuring out how to screw them over the most and maximize your chance of winning.

What a great card

Quote from Monkey D Luffy »

Quote from TheTennesseeFireman »

I'm not as sold as everyone else just yet. She's weak against every removal spell and a poor topdeck. She rumbles well, but I think it's easy to overestimate the rest of her abilities, since cube isn't saturated with nonbasics and Imposing Sovereign gets worse when your opponent has had extra time to deploy creatures. The baseline's probably reasonable enough to test, but White 3-drops are pretty ludicrous. Still hope to hear good results.

Being weak against removal is something I will never holds a 3 drop to, ever.

I've heard people saying this multiple times in this forum and it's 1000% incorrect.
Losing tempo efficiency to removal (while generating no value) is absolutely something that devalues a card. In a format of bolts, shocks, path to exile, doom blades, multiple wrath of gods 3 mana creatures that generate no value to sorcery speed removal need to be excellent to be playable.

How well creatures align with the removal of the format is one of the central attributes in magic that determines a creatures value. In a powered cube too.... I was too high on Drana, underestimating this concept. I will never make that mistake again.

Quote from steve_man »

My preliminary ranking of our now newly completed pantheon of Eldrazi Overlords, feel free to argue with my loose opinions.

#1: Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

- Best overall package in terms of castability, reanimation, protection, and clock.

#2 / #3: Tied between both Kozilek, Butcher of Truth and Kozilek, the Great Distortion

- I think these two are close, with the deciding factor being how castable Koz 2.0 is in your cube. Koz 1.0 is the only Titan without any form of protection and has an anti-reanimation clause, but he's also the most castable tita. with Anhillator.

#4: Emrakul, the Promised End

- The most castable one in the mid and late game for ramp / control decks, it has very relevant evasion / protection and is a good reanimation target.

#5: Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

- Castable, but not as much as others listed. Anti-reanimation clause sucks, but it's better than Kozilek 1.0 in Sneak Attack situations since Ulamog is indestructible.

#6: Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

- The most narrow of the bunch. Uncastable outside of having Channel, Mirari's Wake, or Mana Reflection and anti-reanimation clause restricts Emrakul to Show and Tell / Eureka / Oath of Druids / Sneak Artack strategies.

I think some people here over-value versatility in their cheaty targets and undervalue upside.

I personally rank old Emrakul 2nd (agree with your #1).

Brief argument:
The ratio of decks that are trying to hardcast eldrazi BUT have 0 or 1 way to cheat them out, is noticeably smaller than the ones based around cheating them out. While emrakul is narrowest, it's not by a large margin; considering the set of strategies that actively want eldrazi.

"Reanimatability" is only a very small concern to me. If you properly support a variety of cheaty strategies, reanimator should have a wealth of targets, many of which are better than the eldrazi. This reduces the need for the eldrazi to be reanimatable.

The higher upside of emrakul, more than makes up for it's increased narrowness IMO.

*Note: Im assuming a cube in the 450-600 range that has all the cheaty options available and doesn't skimp on the critical mass of targets for those decks*

It's a very interesting card that's hard to evaluate on the surface... and it's certainly powerful.
My playgroup/cube tends to draft a lot of blue decks and my intuition is that it's the weakest of the major eldrazi against those.
Soft to wraths and some planeswalker heavy decks.

What I have a tough time evaluating is

a) How good is the mind slaver effect? I've seen mind slaver be "win the game" and I've seen it be equivalent to a silence. Have a tough time evaluating it's power level.
It seems like it would be a lot stronger in the mid-late game than the early game. Making the card worse as a busted powered out target.

b) How big is the cast discount going to be? Probably enough to be castable as a control finisher. Especially if you have some cards like dack fayden. Will self mill reanimation decks be happy with this as a potentially hardcastable target in the mid-late game AND a good reanimation target?

What I don't like, is that as a card powered/cheated out very early in the game it falls a bit short of the current eldrazi competition , which is what it's directly competing with.

Quote from steve_man »

I think Upheaval is a more powerful card than Jace since it just wins the game when cast but Jace is more versatile and can go into far more decks. If it's P1P1, I'd go with Upheaval so that I can go all in from there, but if it was like P3P1 I'd be more inclined to go with the Jace unless I already had an extensive amount of ramp.

I like to go for archetype defining cards P1P1 whenever possible.

I generally take the opposite strategy unless that archetype defining card has way more upside than the versatile card, or no one will go into that archetype unless they have the card that I'm considering picking. (IE sulfuric vortex).

Nothing feels worse than forcing artifacts, only to find the person to your immediate right is forcing artifacts

I pick cards like swords to plowshares, premium dual lands, lightning bolt, thoughtseize, jace the mind sculptor very highly for the draft versatility

Quote from wtwlf123 »

I'd play a 2/3 Zombie Mesmeric Fiend, maybe even if it was BB. The 3rd toughness would be huge on an effect like this, and the additional pressure would make it easier to maindeck as a generic aggro beater.

I would snap off that card so hard haha. Zombie synergies, disruption vs combo, enough power to beat down and a blocker vs agro (strip their removal spell, block 2/2's).
Not in the realm of unprintable either... Unlikely for sure, but not impossible.

Quote from Salmo »

Quote from LucidVision »

Quote from Salmo »

The format is always cube in the cube forum, and in that context asmallcat is 100% correct--anguished unmaking is leaps and bounds ahead of tide hollow sculler. I think it's safe to ignore their spot on the curve and look at what they do, with Tidehollow Sculler essentially countered by removal and Anguished Unmaking being that hard removal which answers pretty much everything, something that is much much more valuable in cube than a two-color mesmeric fiend.

No.

YOUR cube is a format, my cube is a format, MTGO cube is a format. Acknowledgement of the variation that exists within formats and how the efficacy of a card is contingent upon those variations is essential.
There's some cards that are fairly static in power dependent on the cube composition, some vary wildly. Tidehollow sculler's power varies wildly.

In a full-on combo cube tidehollow sculler would be excellent and anguished unmaking would be close to unplayable.

In my cube format, which isn't that far off of a lot of peoples here. I'm 100% sure that for the decks that actively want a sculler effect, tidehollow sculler is reasonably close in power to anguished unmaking. The lack of good hand disruption options AND plethora of removal spells in BW make it a more desired effect to build a 3-0 deck.. You will likely get 1-2 expensive universal removal spells anyway, and that's all you want. Ideally you want at least 3 early curve hand disruption spells.

We are on the cube forums, it is silly to discuss cards in context of other formats like legacy or modern, or expect other users to. And even though our cubes are different like all cubes there, there are general principles and concepts that have to be true if we're going to have a general cube discussion. Saying "this is a good/bad cube card" needs to mean something without adding a million caveats. And even in a combo cube there's no way I run sculler of anguished unmaking, as the instant speed aspect of that Anguished Unmaking is certainly going to have an effect against combo decks along with being that great against so many other decks. (EDIT: I misinterpreted your comment, I thought you meant a cube that features combo--yes, in an all combo cube then tide hollow sculler would be better. However since that is not a cube I really consider when evaluating card power and not one I think most people would, anguished unmaking is generally a lot better as hard removal>>>>temporary discard.)

Acknowledging the variations between formats is big, but even bigger is acknowledging the similarities in order to have general discussions that are all inclusive. Adding a caveat like "in my such and such cube this is how it performs" is certainly helpful, but when someone else says "this card is bad and I don't like it", I'm not going to question whether he believes it's bad in every possible of iteration of cube out there--I'm going to understand it's a personal experience he had with his cube, take that for what it is, and use his response + the sum of all the other opinions and draw my own conclusions for my own group.

Sorry for the condescending tone in my post, I took some adderall this morning and it brings that out in me.

I like bringing other formats into the discussion (within reason) as it's interesting to identify WHY a card is good in some formats and not others. Sometimes the factors that make card A good in it's standard format, but bad in modern; are the same factors why it's good in a large unpowered cube and bad in a tight powered cube.

When I see blanket statements like card A is WAY better than card B, if those cards value are highly context specific, discussing nuances of a format become important.

But yeah, I agree with you, if someone says "Card A is > Card B" without context, we can assume he's implying it's about his cube... Which is ok... It's when disagreements occur, that people can end up talking past each other. Asmallcat appeared to replying to my post above his with his comment saying there's "No way tidehollow sculler is = to anguished unmaking". A pointless discussion if I'm only referring to my cube, and he's referring only to his.

As one of those former multi-PT competitors that's cubed for almost a decade I totally agree with the wtwlf123 and calibretto that success on the professional circuit doesn't necessarily translate into having the best design decisions and card evaluation skills in relation to constructing a cube (and totally agree that Tangle Wire is a windmill slam for aggro). That said, you WILL often get a more accurate sense of card quality due to tighter play when you have a playgroup that is more technically sound, as the cards will be played to maximize value (and draft decks will often be tighter and more sensitive to issues such as curve and mana cost). That being said, as much as I love Jace Beleren, I would have to give Jace, Architect of Thought the slight nod as he can actually interact with creatures on the board, and can represent a "draw-four for four" (albeit where the opponent can dictate the quality of those cards). My blue decks very often have 2cc artifact mana in them, Architect's 4cc falls right into that line-of-play by dropping on the same turn as Beleren would. This one appears to simply be a matter of preference though, and I completely understand siding with 3cc Jace in this instance.

I think this is worse than the original Sigarda by a pretty large margin, and that card's not played much anymore.

Quote from SaucyFaucet »

Hey can we get a consensus on whether this is pound for pound, grass roots, raw power/versatilty better than vindicate? I'm definitely getting one soon to replace Mortify and I just can't determine which one I like more...

Just leave your vote at the end of every comment, thanks!



I'm feeling like when you factor in the loss of life, it trades off for the exile ability, and instant trades for permanent, so... damn are they even? ugh.

This is no where close to Vindicate. Most removal isn't. That's why it's the "Vindicate Test". I don't want to speak for everyone here, but I feel pretty safe speaking for everyone here that Vindicate is head-and-shoulders better than this.

Quote from LucidVision »

Unless someone wants to do a full simulation of how cantrips , draw spells ,discard/mulligans , effect the chances of it flipping, analysis probably can't take us much further.

In a deck with 10 instants/sorceries that work with TitI, if HALF of the spells are cantrips (or replace their draw like Cryptic or kicked Into the Roil, etc) your chances of drawing 4 of those spells through turn 6 increases to 32.8%. If one of the spells is a draw spell that generates at least +1 card advantage and a second one is a cantrip, your chances go up to 41.2%.

The first value that gives you a > 50/50 shot of even drawing enough instants and sorceries to possibly flip it is a deck with 11 instants and sorceries, where at least 25% are cantrips and 25% are muti-card draw spells, AND you need to draw at least 2 spells in one of those two categories. If you can pull that off, you'll have a 51.3% chance of drawing enough tools to flip it through the end of turn 6.

However, that's only half the formula ...you still have to assume that:

None of the instants or sorceries are wraths or sweepers that don't work with TitI.
You draw the correct mixture of spells and lands to be able to cast all the drawn spells (no flood, screw or color source issues).
You draw and cast TitI before you resolve any of those synergy cards (so you have to sandbag your T1 cantrips and Spikes).
Your opponent can't disrupt your hand.
Your opponent can't disrupt your mana.
Your opponent can't force you to change your spellcasting gameplan to react to what they're doing.
Your opponent can't kill TitI.
Your opponent can't kill you first .

So what I'm gonna do, is force-draft decks that fit that above criteria and playtest them repeatedly. I want to get a sample size of 20 resolutions with Thing in the Ice in decks it's supposed to be better than 50/50 in, and see if the in-game experience mirrors the estimated data. If after factoring in a designed build AND all the in-game changes that effect its performance gives me a 25% flip rate, I think it will have a solid chance of being a reasonable cube card. But if I put it into a deck where it should statistically work and still can't ...that'll give me the information I need to know. It'll probably take a few weeks to compile that data, unless I can jump on several lucky opportunities quickly.

I disagree with granting your creatures indestructible as just icing. It is specifically that ability with flash that makes her value go up. Without that she'd be a lot more meh. And the Slagstorm on flip can be a downside but what percentage of the time will that realistically be? I think it's being overstated too much. I mean FTK is still great even if it has to shoot one of your own guys every now and then. I'd certainly have Avacyn be a DFC even if the ability can potentially be used against you.

I think Exalted Angel is finally getting the axe for me.

To be fair, it was "almost strictly better [once on the battlefield]", and "I like Diamond more..." both of which are pretty well rooted in opinion. And I still believe those opinions, again, in the decks that could reasonably play both. In those decks, I think Diamond is significantly better (when it resolves) and I also like it more.

Quote from LucidVision »

Mox diamond is definitely the better cube card.

This is pretty much what I've been trying to say.

Got a good chunk of playtime these last couple weeks thanks to a long weekend, a brutal cold spell and people actually being free. Impressions of the OGW adds so far:

1. Manlands - These have all been great. I was down on them when they were spoiled but to be honest it was because I was hoping for a land in the same tier as Colonnade/Tar Pit. None of them are quite as good but that's not to say they're bad. I've yet to see one in a sideboard, including Needle Spires, which has surprisingly been fine even in dedicated aggro. Notably, I ran Needle Spires in a mostly red burn deck with a splash of white where it acted as a great mana sink after I've played out most of my hand. Double strike has proven to be a very good ability allowing it to attack into most dudes and also allowing it to deal significant damage to the face. Works great in the colours that have access to burn and wraths (and I was quite down on this manland in particular due to it coming in tapped in an aggro heavy guild).

2. Reflector Mage - I'd rank this the second best non-land card in Azorius. Card is real nice. Comfortably blocks a large portion of the field, survives a bit of burn, and gives opponents less choice.

3. Oath of Nissa - Green card selection working as advertised.

4. Nissa, Voice of Zendikar - It's possible that I like Baby Nissa more than I should because I want to like her. To be honest I can't even put my finger on why I like her exactly. Maybe it has something to do with her being a 3-drop in the colour that can reliably cast her on turn 2. Maybe it's because the 0/1's have been so handy at clogging up the board creating space and buying time for ramp. They also synergize well with a lot of cube mainstays that pretty much everyone runs already. It could also be the fact that she's able to turn elves, sages and witnesses into actual threats when required. Or perhaps it has something to do with seeing her win games with her ult a few times already. For whatever reason I very much like Baby Nissa and I'm happy to give her a spot in my cube.

5. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet - Provides a different set of pros to the slot which is great. Kind of how the red 4-drop slot is I'm happy to run one of either Nekrataal and Skinrender, then Braids and Kalitas. I've noticed some people have cooled off on this card but it's been playing out very well here. I doubt I'll be replacing anytime soon.

After adding Blinkmoth Nexus (been quite happy with it so far) and Dust Bowl, I have somewhere around 18 colourless sources in my 420 from just lands and rocks (not counting in colour cards like STE and Yavimaya Elder, etc). Since I only added a couple of colourless matters cards, the four Wastes I have sleeved up have been enough (I think only two have been used at a time). Should more colourless sources be required moving forward, I can flip the Signets into Talismans.

1. Thought-Knot Seer - Okay so I'm now in love with this card. I think his/her eye in chest and lobster arm things are adorable. As others have pointed out, the ability to exile all kinds of problem cards from sweepers to combo pieces has been amazing. Gives mostly/mono coloured decks a decent way of hitting key cards that they would otherwise have a very hard time dealing with. And 4/4 is a very respectable body that packs a punch and isn't easily removed. This card has been run in Mono Red, BBr Aggro, GGr Ramp and a Selesnya aggressive midrange deck where it ripped a Languish on curve.

2. Reality Smasher - Very good card. Awesome in the midrange v control matchup.

3/4. Eldrazi Displacer/Bearer of Silence - If the colourless was in their casting cost I wouldn't be able to run them at all. But since it's a 'kicker' of sorts they become much more playable. Of the two Displacer is the better card but is in a much more competitive slot. Bearer is in a slot that can use the base Interloper body (which rarely misses the cut in BX aggro) so I plan to keep him until a better 2-drop aggro dude is printed.

Chandra, Flamecaller - need more reps with this card. I hear good things but I don't know if she'd be better than Sarkhan for my cube... a card I currently don't run. In for now but don't know for how long.

Sylvan Advocate - I cut the cord on green aggro so this was also chopped. Quality creature but I just don't have a home for him anymore. If I bring green aggro back I'd most likely include this guy.

Interested to hear more about Mirrorpool. Ceiling looks pretty high especially in smaller lists.

I've had a chance to generate some long-term impressions for these cards as well:

Thought-Knot Seer- Not as busted as in constructed, but still probably the best of the pure colorless cards. It's a pretty exciting effect that often proves to be an entryway towards the rest of the colorless "archetype". Might survive even if the rest of the colorless package gets cut.

Reality Smasher- Solid stuff. I've run it to great effect in mono-colored aggro decks, which can normally afford a few Wastes and colorless nonbasics.

Kozilek, the Great Distortion- If you're running Heartbeat and other super-ramp style decks, this is one of the best high-end targets in the cube. If you run more cheaty stuff like Show and Tell, you're really going to miss that annihilator. That said, there's nothing quite like drawing the full seven with this.

Mirrorpool- When this works, it's amazing. But actually committing to it is a pretty major deckbuilding cost, and ultimately not one that most players in my group have been willing to pay. It's getting cut, but I could see bringing it back if more people get excited about building around it.

Sea Gate Wreckage- Once in every ten or so games, this will win you the game almost by itself. Almost every other time, this is just a Wastes. Even now I'm not sure if that's the kind of dichotomy I'm willing to accept out of a cube card, especially a utility land.

Eldrazi Displacer- This has actually made more waves in White Weenie than dedicated blink decks for me; they get almost as much value and can afford to worry less about color committments. One of the most powerful members of the cycle.

Dimensional Infiltrator- Fine tempo option for bigger cubes, but flash isn't the mechanic that breaks Welkin Tern in half. The ability is flavor text when it comes to deckbuilding considerations.

Linvala, the Presever- Made a big splash in our first draft, but it's been slowly falling since then. The big issue is that your opponent has to be 2 creatures up for you to get the angel, and sometimes you can't afford to let your opponent get that far ahead, angel or no. Still a good card, but I'm not sure I'd rather just have Soul of Theros back.

Crush of Tentacles- Very fun card with a lot of great experiences behind it, but the blue high-end competition is just too cutthroat. It doesn't help that surging it does require some concerted effort.

Oath of Jace- Very disappointing performance here. Not ever being card advantage is a pretty major problem for a card like this, and if you're casting planeswalkers you tend to prefer support spells that help you protect them. Avoid.

Bearer of Silence- Not quite Nekrataal, but never bad. Some black aggro decks have maindecked it as simply a Vampire Interloper, which bodes well for its long-term playability.

Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet- I agree that this is nice change of pace; most of black's midrange threats aren't capable of warping a game around them like Kalitas. Definitely underestimated him starting out, but I agree that he's not essential if another threat comes along that fills his role better.

Chandra, Flamecaller- After fiddling around with Jokulhaups and the like for a long time, it feels good to have a real red top-end outside of Titan and the Wildfires. She's not better than those, but if you've got the room, she's by far the best option at the slot outside of those.

Nissa, Voice of Zendikar- After a lot of playtesting, I can safely say I really like her and she'll be sticking around for me at 540. She slots in with a lot of green's good value 3-drops, and gains a lot of value for being one of the only cards in that slot that supports aggro (double green is an issue for some of those decks though). The big thing that put her over the top for me was realizing just how often she gets to ultimate, and just how powerful that ultimate is; she honestly plays like a more versatile and interactive Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver. She's not perfect; her weakness to evasion can bite back at times, and her cost precludes her from some of her natural homes. She's still good enough value for me, and I definitely recommend trying her out in any list above 360.

Oath of Nissa- Pretty much every base-green deck ends up playing this unless it's a really wonky brew. Great card.

Sylvan Advocate- Just a good all-around 2-drop. That's really all there is to say. It's in for the long haul.

Reflector Mage- A huge get for tempo decks, and probably the best card in the set. If you support anything other than pure control in Azorius, you should probably be playing this.

Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim- Unfortunately, she's getting the axe. She's fine value, but right now I haven't seen enough to make me think she's worthy of a tight multicolor slot (especially when my playgroup is chomping at the bit to get Unburial Rites back in). I don't think anybody's activated her last ability to date.

Hissing Quagmire- Honestly would have cut this for Temple of Malady if not for the presence of a Loam archetype in my cube. It's just so miserable to attack with, and only plays respectably when you're facing down a Polukranos or the like. Probably the worst of the whole cycle.

Needle Spires/Wandering Fumarole- Both of these lands are great threats, and should be in any list looking for duals beyond the ABU/Fetch/Shock cycles. Any land that hits for 4 is no joke.

So do I. Black aggro is hugely popular. I like Kalitas a lot, and it's in no danger of getting cut. It's beastly against aggro builds, and I wanted black to have a card in this slot that helped that matchup.