Not much to discuss about the card, only the questions he brings up and where he ranks relative to other white 1 drops (for fun).
I'm going to call he's on power level of as student of warfare (maybe slightly BETTER), but mana is less restrictive, thus ranking higher.
It's awsome that white weenie gets another high power level 1 drop... Strongly believe WW is a medium-low tier supported archetype in powered cube. This is an awsome boost for it.
There's such a huge difference in power level between Mother of runes, student of warfare, figure of destiny and the rest of the white 1 drop cast... Great to have another card on the tier 1 level. Especially one that doesn't require such a heavy white commitment!
I love how well it works with overcommiting. It encourages you to overcommit for 1 turn , then if you can survive that turn, you have pressure, are attacking on two angles and are no longer over commited! What a well designed card...
I would be hard pressed to say that this new Jace will be good in competitive, constructed decks but he is extremely good in powered cubes. He fuels multiple archetypes and can recast a few powered cards. I think every cube should give him a shot.
Definitely seems better suited for cube (discard outlet and flashback is at a premium).
But.... Like... He's 2 freaking mana! Wouldn't be surprised if people try to make him work in standard.
Regarding purphoros vs sarkhan, I prefer purphoros.
I think sarkhan is only good, not great... worse than most peoples initial estimation, and red 5 drops is stacked.
I cut him because Im oversatured at 5 for various reasons, but he's fine...
If you were in the market for red 5 drops, most people don't talk about stormbreath dragon, but I suspect he's better than sarkhan and serves a similar roll. (though Im not a fan of wildfire decks, which may be a kicker to pick sarkhan over stormbreath, sarkhan is better in a controlling shell, while stormbreath im guessing is better in agro/midrange)
Purphoros isn't necessary, but is a cool card to build around, and in the right deck he's very powerful.
To be fair, I think the sentiment that it will barely loot more than once or twice is spot on. This could be one of the easier cards to flip. So if you need a hardcore looter than I wouldn't overly depend on this one.
This is true, but this is pretty fringe, as it has to be a deck that
a) Wants a looter
b) Wants a looter (after a single looting has taken place) MORE than a 2 mana super-undercosted planeswalker.
Maybe like a very specific show and tell deck (digging for a key piece is more important than flashing back spells). Living death deck?
But id estimate this is like 1/20 of the decks that actually would play a looter to begin with.
I think jace will end up being the best looter available for cube (and I like looter il-kor a fair bit). Im pretty high on this card.
Very easy to flip, and his flip side is pretty absurd value for 2 mana. If he gets removed, it's not the end of the world since he only cost 2 mana.
I like how you can wait to your opponenets turn to loot, block an opponents creature, then loot to flip it (rare you will want to take this line, but it's something).
Flashback on spell of your choice is very good in a powered cube with all the broken spells that exist. Looting synergizes with flashback as well..
Auto-testing and expecting him to stay for a while
Interesting I'm the only one that thinks that lingering souls is a higher pick than vindicate. Very confident about my ranking. Both are awesome cards, but I didn't think the choice was very close.
They are close in power level to each other, but lingering souls is easier to cast and has a higher upside when drafted around (IMO).
Curious if more people agree with me in a few years when the historical appreciation for vindicate relative to souls wears off a bit.
Solid card, comparable in power to many of the stronger 5 drops in the cube.... but it's quite narrow.
I am currently running it as a pseudo simic card (find simic too weak outside of edric), but it's close to the chopping block. It fits GU's game plan quite well, provding a threat that can take over the game quickly by itself, and help ramp into something bigger.
The value he generates is incredible, but he is not great at protecting himself. A 4/4 dragon is awsome, but in practise going to 2 loyalty + the dragon blocker has proven to be more vulnerable than I was expecting. If you are behind in the slightest, sarkhan often bites the dust without providing adequate value for 5 mana + card in a rampy deck.
He requires tight play and a deck that can protect him enough that he can generate the requisite value. The upside when he gets a few activations is worth it to try and make that happen.
Just yesterday I drafted him in a Rug good stuff deck and I was happy with his performance.
An interesting situation that highlighted his strength occured during a board stall. I was keeping pace with my opponents whisperwood elemental, with cards being drawn off of sarkhans +1. Unfortunately he was drawing better than me. He was one turn away from amounting a force to alpha strike.
The turn I was about to die, I drew time walk, attacked with my lone dragon for 4, made another dragon and cast time walk. Next turn, I drew a land, +1ed sarkhan to draw a card and hit den protector. Exactly what I needed. Used Den protector to regrowth back time walk, cast it. Attacked with my dragons for 8, passed the turn. Swung for another 8 effectively dealing lethal.
Clearly powerful (and amazing if a madness deck ever becomes a thing), but don't think it's quite good enough to crack medium lists.
Being forced to play it when you have no good cards left in your hand is a significant restriction, and if you chose to pitch a lightning strike or something to get it out, it will bite the dust and cost you a card a little too often for my liking.
Shouldn't be that hard to build around tho, and "wheel of fortune red" is something I try to draft anyway. (Jamming as many cheap red spells as possible, 15 lands). Goal is to get hellbent as fast as possible, lots of burn, wheel of fortune, PEW PEW PEW PEW, GG.
fwiw, even though a lot of disagreements happened in this thread and a few emotions were heated early, think this is a productive discussion!
Useful for people who are on the fence about green agro and don't have much experience with it.
Sometimes you'll end up with Dryad Militant, Tattermunge Maniac, Experiment One, Jungle Lion, and Rancor and your deck can lean a little heavy on the green side. But it doesn't have enough clones of these types of cards to make this happen regularly and often the way that other colors do. Heavy red and white aggro decks happen far more often.
I'll have to disagree on that. While white certainly does, is red really having that much more reliable quality 2/x 1-drop or utility one that can easily fill up a roll in a aggro deck than green? I don't think the answer to that question is clearly yes.
While I'm not going to go through card by card, I'll agree with you that comparing the 1 drops you listed there's not a big differential in power. (I think red still gets the edge).
But this doesn't tell the full picture because red has SO many more POWERFUL agro support cards that green doesn't.
Oodles and oodles of burn, sick 4 drop finishers, goblin rabblemaster and sulfuric vortex.
If you go G/R, use all green 1 drops bunch of good green 2 drop creatures, then fill out the rest with burn spells, 4 drop finishers, vortex etc.
You would get similar creature power level in the 1/2 slot + similar support spells with a significantly worse mana base.
The red deck would be able play multiple powerful colorless lands and still be color screwed less than the GR deck, making it significantly better.
The point is, while green does have some really solid early aggro guys, it doesn't have enough to reliably be the front runner color in an average aggro deck.
I think it does, and G/x aggro decks come together all the time. You get just as many aggro critters for that deck as you would white/black/red if the color is being contested, which is often is. When you're a green aggro drafter, you're usually the only one, and all the tools are yours for the taking.
Quote from Calibretto »
A heavy green aggro deck can certainly be a contender.
Glad we're in agreement, considering that's the debate at hand.
That's not the debate in hand (if you believe it is, you are arguing something people aren't saying).
The debate is where HEAVY (65%+) Green agro ranks RELATIVE to other archetypes. The specifics of the wording is very important.
At no point have you conceded that heavy green agro is weaker than the other agro archetype on average (excuse me if I missed it). This is the point calibretto, hardb0dy and myself are focusing on.
My "thesis" is that heavy green agro is one of the weakest supported archetypes. That doesn't exclude it from ever being a contender or worth being supported.
I think if you are drafting to win, you should go into heavy green agro only when a special set of draft options presents itself. (ie mox emerald -> strip mine -> double green 1 drop pack)
Those green agro decks should be close in power to the avg non-green agro deck. But that sequence of cards will come up much less often then say sulfuric vortex p1p1 -> Go RED!.
... and the green decks were built on the power of non-green cards to start with.
So, whenever I have a strong polarized opinion from the majority, that I've thought a lot about.. I assume the answer lies somewhere in the middle between my opinion and the majority. I'm trying really hard to see what I can learn.
Here, I'm not close to changing my initial point of dryad militant/tattermunge being over valued in the top 10 threads, or that Heavy green agro is low tier archetype.
BUT, a few things I think I was wrong about that are ideas I've gained from thinking about the counter arguments.
1) I want to support green agro properly as "zoo". And take the best elements of green agro without giving them the density of support of the other three agro colors.
2) I'm missing some good green agro cards that ARE above par that increase the power level of a 3 color green agro deck.
Those cards are rancor, experiment one and I'll give plow under another test run.
This seems like a pretty damn good start to me if your goal is to snap your opponent quickly. Only a counterspell could swap this draws when you're on the play.
Yeah that is def a very strong curve, but it's mostly due to the mox.
Mox emerald -> strip mine -> strong green agro option (ie nacatl + experiment one that will likely wheel) is a good reason to go into a lower tier archetype like green agro. The very strong first few cards should make up for the archetypes weakness later...
Although id still be looking to go into zoo and only playing a card like tattermunge maniac if I had to (which my deleted post was discussing)
Not much to discuss about the card, only the questions he brings up and where he ranks relative to other white 1 drops (for fun).
I'm going to call he's on power level of as student of warfare (maybe slightly BETTER), but mana is less restrictive, thus ranking higher.
It's awsome that white weenie gets another high power level 1 drop... Strongly believe WW is a medium-low tier supported archetype in powered cube. This is an awsome boost for it.
There's such a huge difference in power level between Mother of runes, student of warfare, figure of destiny and the rest of the white 1 drop cast... Great to have another card on the tier 1 level. Especially one that doesn't require such a heavy white commitment!
I love how well it works with overcommiting. It encourages you to overcommit for 1 turn , then if you can survive that turn, you have pressure, are attacking on two angles and are no longer over commited! What a well designed card...
Definitely seems better suited for cube (discard outlet and flashback is at a premium).
But.... Like... He's 2 freaking mana! Wouldn't be surprised if people try to make him work in standard.
I think sarkhan is only good, not great... worse than most peoples initial estimation, and red 5 drops is stacked.
I cut him because Im oversatured at 5 for various reasons, but he's fine...
If you were in the market for red 5 drops, most people don't talk about stormbreath dragon, but I suspect he's better than sarkhan and serves a similar roll. (though Im not a fan of wildfire decks, which may be a kicker to pick sarkhan over stormbreath, sarkhan is better in a controlling shell, while stormbreath im guessing is better in agro/midrange)
Purphoros isn't necessary, but is a cool card to build around, and in the right deck he's very powerful.
This is true, but this is pretty fringe, as it has to be a deck that
a) Wants a looter
b) Wants a looter (after a single looting has taken place) MORE than a 2 mana super-undercosted planeswalker.
Maybe like a very specific show and tell deck (digging for a key piece is more important than flashing back spells). Living death deck?
But id estimate this is like 1/20 of the decks that actually would play a looter to begin with.
Plus her walker is great, but that not THAT great, considering how underpowered she is in her non-flip form.
Very easy to flip, and his flip side is pretty absurd value for 2 mana. If he gets removed, it's not the end of the world since he only cost 2 mana.
I like how you can wait to your opponenets turn to loot, block an opponents creature, then loot to flip it (rare you will want to take this line, but it's something).
Flashback on spell of your choice is very good in a powered cube with all the broken spells that exist. Looting synergizes with flashback as well..
Auto-testing and expecting him to stay for a while
They are close in power level to each other, but lingering souls is easier to cast and has a higher upside when drafted around (IMO).
Curious if more people agree with me in a few years when the historical appreciation for vindicate relative to souls wears off a bit.
Solid list, thanks for taking the time.
I am currently running it as a pseudo simic card (find simic too weak outside of edric), but it's close to the chopping block. It fits GU's game plan quite well, provding a threat that can take over the game quickly by itself, and help ramp into something bigger.
The value he generates is incredible, but he is not great at protecting himself. A 4/4 dragon is awsome, but in practise going to 2 loyalty + the dragon blocker has proven to be more vulnerable than I was expecting. If you are behind in the slightest, sarkhan often bites the dust without providing adequate value for 5 mana + card in a rampy deck.
He requires tight play and a deck that can protect him enough that he can generate the requisite value. The upside when he gets a few activations is worth it to try and make that happen.
Just yesterday I drafted him in a Rug good stuff deck and I was happy with his performance.
An interesting situation that highlighted his strength occured during a board stall. I was keeping pace with my opponents whisperwood elemental, with cards being drawn off of sarkhans +1. Unfortunately he was drawing better than me. He was one turn away from amounting a force to alpha strike.
The turn I was about to die, I drew time walk, attacked with my lone dragon for 4, made another dragon and cast time walk. Next turn, I drew a land, +1ed sarkhan to draw a card and hit den protector. Exactly what I needed. Used Den protector to regrowth back time walk, cast it. Attacked with my dragons for 8, passed the turn. Swung for another 8 effectively dealing lethal.
Orzhov
1. Lingering Souls
2. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3. Vindicate
4. Sorin, Solemn Visitor
5. Gerard's Verdict
6. Unburial Rites
7. Obzedat, Ghost Council
8. Ashen Rider
9. Magister of worth
10. Tidehollow Sculler
Golgari
1. Pernicious Deed
2. Maelstrom Pulse
3. Abrupt Decay
4. Deathrite Shaman
5. Lotleth Troll
6. Vraska, The Unseen
7. Life//Death
8. Putrefy
9. Putrid Leech
10. Garruk, Apex Predator
Simic
1. Edric, Sypmaster of trest
2. Kiora, The crashing wave
3. Kiora's Follower
4. Mystic Snake
5. Trygon Predator
6. Shardless Agent
7. Sagu Mauler
8. Simic Sky Swallower
9. Coiling Oracle
10. Simic Charm
Izzet
1. Dack Fayden
2. Ral Zarek
3. Dack's Duplicate
4. Izzet Signet
5. Izzet Charm
6. Electrolyze
7. Fire//Ice
8. Prophetic Bolt
9. Keranos, God of Storms
10. Steam Augery
Boros
1. Figure of Destiny
2. Ajani Vengeant
3. Lightning Helix
4. Boros Charm
5. Slayer's Stronghold
6. Chained to the Rocks
7. Boros Reckoner
8. Assemble The legion
9. Wear//Tear
10. Aurelia, The Warleader
Clearly powerful (and amazing if a madness deck ever becomes a thing), but don't think it's quite good enough to crack medium lists.
Being forced to play it when you have no good cards left in your hand is a significant restriction, and if you chose to pitch a lightning strike or something to get it out, it will bite the dust and cost you a card a little too often for my liking.
Shouldn't be that hard to build around tho, and "wheel of fortune red" is something I try to draft anyway. (Jamming as many cheap red spells as possible, 15 lands). Goal is to get hellbent as fast as possible, lots of burn, wheel of fortune, PEW PEW PEW PEW, GG.
Useful for people who are on the fence about green agro and don't have much experience with it.
Multiple view points, examples etc.
While I'm not going to go through card by card, I'll agree with you that comparing the 1 drops you listed there's not a big differential in power. (I think red still gets the edge).
But this doesn't tell the full picture because red has SO many more POWERFUL agro support cards that green doesn't.
Oodles and oodles of burn, sick 4 drop finishers, goblin rabblemaster and sulfuric vortex.
If you go G/R, use all green 1 drops bunch of good green 2 drop creatures, then fill out the rest with burn spells, 4 drop finishers, vortex etc.
You would get similar creature power level in the 1/2 slot + similar support spells with a significantly worse mana base.
The red deck would be able play multiple powerful colorless lands and still be color screwed less than the GR deck, making it significantly better.
That's not the debate in hand (if you believe it is, you are arguing something people aren't saying).
The debate is where HEAVY (65%+) Green agro ranks RELATIVE to other archetypes. The specifics of the wording is very important.
At no point have you conceded that heavy green agro is weaker than the other agro archetype on average (excuse me if I missed it). This is the point calibretto, hardb0dy and myself are focusing on.
My "thesis" is that heavy green agro is one of the weakest supported archetypes. That doesn't exclude it from ever being a contender or worth being supported.
I think if you are drafting to win, you should go into heavy green agro only when a special set of draft options presents itself. (ie mox emerald -> strip mine -> double green 1 drop pack)
Those green agro decks should be close in power to the avg non-green agro deck. But that sequence of cards will come up much less often then say sulfuric vortex p1p1 -> Go RED!.
... and the green decks were built on the power of non-green cards to start with.
Here, I'm not close to changing my initial point of dryad militant/tattermunge being over valued in the top 10 threads, or that Heavy green agro is low tier archetype.
BUT, a few things I think I was wrong about that are ideas I've gained from thinking about the counter arguments.
1) I want to support green agro properly as "zoo". And take the best elements of green agro without giving them the density of support of the other three agro colors.
2) I'm missing some good green agro cards that ARE above par that increase the power level of a 3 color green agro deck.
Those cards are rancor, experiment one and I'll give plow under another test run.
Yeah that is def a very strong curve, but it's mostly due to the mox.
Mox emerald -> strip mine -> strong green agro option (ie nacatl + experiment one that will likely wheel) is a good reason to go into a lower tier archetype like green agro. The very strong first few cards should make up for the archetypes weakness later...
Although id still be looking to go into zoo and only playing a card like tattermunge maniac if I had to (which my deleted post was discussing)