They are way too slow if you are playing against competent drafters. If I lose to Jungle lion , curving into sylvan library, curving into vinelasher kudzu + tattermunge maniac curving into garruk relentless, I probably either got stuck on a land or I drafted a pile of shyt.
I think this is both inaccurate and insulting. Aggro decks are perfectly happy to play Garruk, and if you lose to those draws, it's because green aggro is completely fine, not because your deck is bad.
I agree that Sylvan isn't ideal for aggro draws, but curving aggro creatures into a Garruk is great, and doesn't require your opponent to be an "incompetent drafter" or playing a "pile of ****" in order to be competitive.
What a complete over-exaggeration and an utter load of crap. I normally expect more from your posts LucidVision, but maybe that's a mistake.
Edit: The more I read that post, the more stuff I find wrong with it. Good lord.
Over exaggeration, sure. utter crap? Definitely not.
You agree sylvan library isn't "ideal" draw, My comment specifically referred to your curve with sylvan library AND garruk. The weakness of the curve is the compounded effect of slightly underpowered agro creatures and sylvan library AND a merely "good" agro curve top, not great.
I definitely pushed an emotional button as you reading implications that I wasn't making. In neither logical language implication or from myself. I'll try to use less hyperbole and curse less in the future so we can have a more rational discussion.
Haha, pushed a button I guess.
Tend to curse and use hyperbole when I'm passionate about a subject. Wasn't mad or anything.
Definitely have to agree to disagree. Sorry if I offended you/zetsu, I'll be a bit more careful with my hyperbole in the future.
I'd say id put my money where my mouth is, but no good way of doing it in this context :/
And garruk is great in an agro deck, but either ramped into early or pushing an advantage.
The curve I mentioned INTO garruk is slow and disruptable, garruk won't put the game away, if the next spells you are casting are more jungle lions.
I was using hyperbole as well, a bad/slow draw can lose to that curve. But you are out of your mind if you think that's a good curve in a powered cube....
Replace sylvan library with any red two drop, then replace garruk with hellrider/sulfuric vortex/falkenrath/koth/hero of oxid ridge...
Assume a little interaction,
And you have the difference of half life before casting a big threat vs dead/in burn range.
I think that Sylvan Library is a pretty damn good first pick for a player that want to craft around a green agressive strategy. Eternal Witness is also sweet.
Both 4CC Garruk seems fine as first pick as well. Same thing for Collective Compagny. It just depends on how draft's rounds resolve. They can easily act as first pick in the second one where you does have info on the draft and still have a lot of time to build your deck properly.
There are also lots of really good gold cards that push green into this archetype. Siege Rhino and Warden of the First Tree are the most recently print examples.
I strongly disagree that garruk, eternal witness or sylvan library are first pick quality cards in an agressive strategy. Maybe in general, but jungle lion agro is definitly not the archetype I want to move into when I pick those cards early. They are way too slow if you are playing against competent drafters. If I lose to Jungle lion , curving into sylvan library, curving into vinelasher kudzu + tattermunge maniac curving into garruk relentless, I probably either got stuck on a land or I drafted a pile of shyt.
I agree that green has some good agressive gold cards (Warden is nice, fleecemane/qasali pride mage is great, Siege Rhino is awsome if u have the mana, Bloodbraid elf is sick, Sarkhan vol is great etc)
which is why I excluded "zoo" from my initial criticism. A deck composed of 3+ colors, with lots of green multi-colored agro creatures and an assortment of premium one drops and removal spells across those colors is very competitive. The point is I do not want to play ******* tattermunge maniac in that deck. heh. Only if I absolutely have to, to fill out my curve.
As a base agressive color, I think green is bad. You can build some very solid decks due to it's support colors(IE it'll be good if the other 35% of your deck is made up of premium agro cards from other colors, power, strip mine, swords etc).
But I think the deck would have been almost always be signifcantly better if you replaced the mono green cards with a random distribution of similar curved agressive cards from the other agro colors.
I disagree with, well, pretty much your entire assessment. I don't think green aggro is underpowered, I don't think it's only worth going into with a "funny" sequence of colorless support, I don't think it's only worth it if a "better" color is only being hated out, and I certainly don't feel the hybrid advantage is minimal (the hybrid advantage is tremendous). So I don't think they're being overrated at all. Certainly not "disgustingly overrated". Just my $0.02.
heh, didnt pull the comment in time, took it down cause of some language I used and didn't express my argument properly.
But, I have no clue how you think green agro (I'll define green agro as >65% green cards) is anything but a near-bottom tier archetype.
It lacks reach , lacks removal , lacks disruption, it has no first pick quality cards and the creatures aren't even better. Nacatl and Goyf are the only exceptions, and they aren't anything compared to the top agro cards in the other colors. There's actually nothing it does better than the other colors.
I can only wrap my head around it being good as a support roll (it's cards are comparible to lower-mid tier cards in other agro colors) if you lack quality playables and to fill out your curve.
My raging skepticism is only quelled by my respect for you and your vast cubing experience... I think you'd have to smash me multiple drafts with green agro, only way I can buy it haha
Hybrids, single colored cards and fixing get ranked a bit higher than their power level, due to flexibility advantages p1p1. A bit of a shame since the list ends up being quite a bit different than what I think the most powerful cards are.
Oh well, they act as a nice divider for cards that I think are a level in power level above another group of cards.
Azorius:
1. Geist of St. Traft
2. Celestial colonnade
3. Azorius Signet
4. Detention Sphere
5. Supreme Verdict
6. Sphinx's Revelation
7. Dragonlord Ojutai
8. Talisman of Progress
9. Venser, The Sojourner
10. Ojutai's Command
Gruul:
1. Bloodbraid Elf
2. Dragonlord Atarka
3. Raging Ravine
4. Ghor-clan Rampager
5. Sarkhan Vol
6. Ancient Grudge (huge disparity between powered and unpowered unfortunatly, assuming powered cube)
7. Xenagos, The Reveler
8. Orcish Lumberjack
9. Kird Ape
10. Huntmaster of the Fells
Selesnya
1. Kitchen Finks
2. Qasali Pridemage
3. Mirrai's wake
4. Avacyn's Pilgrim
5. Stirring Wildwood
6. Voice of Resurgence
7. Fleecemane Lion
8. Selesnya Charm
9. Knight of the Reliquary (Assuming cube without proper lands to abuse him with, can go up substantially in the right cube)
10. Dromoka's Command
I'm honestly not sure how to respond to "guess you don't like winning" statements referring to my opinion on cards or my top 20 votes.
You would pick a less powerful card (grand coliseum) over a more powerful card (city of ass) or would skip over very powerful uncards/conspiracy cards in this theoretical cube draft that allows for them to show up in the P1P1. Other people are going to take these cards that are clearly more powerful and win more games with them. You are willing to sacrifice power for principle.
ExActly. Sorry had to be a dick when pointing it out, but I was exposed to that type of thinking day in day out for 7 years from fishy poker players. All the bloody lips from repressing explanations manifested itself with a sarcastic Internet forum post.
They would lose with a great hand many times in a row , then not play it anymore because it burned them too many times. You'd be amazed how many otherwise smart people think like this. Winning players don't.
Mana crypt is an absurdly powerful card. There's a reason almost everyone has it high in their top 20.
It requires minor building around to utilize its full potential, but you can throw it in 90+ percent of decks and not think twice about it. Ideally if you p1p1 it, you draft a deck that has curves that end the game fast with a mana crypt in your opening hand.. Life gain is also important.
Passing it for anything other than another broken card is spewing value , no matter how unlucky you've been in the past with it.
I didn't vote for City of Ass at all, while I did vote for Paliano. I do understand the upside of City of Ass when it can be abused with something like Garruk or similar effects to be able to get three mana out of it, but I just don't like this type of card. If I saw it in a draft, I doubt I'd take it very highly and I'd certainly never take it P1P1. With Paliano, I could see it going somewhere in the first eight picks. I doubt I'd ever take it P1P1, but at least at that stage you can try to craft your deck around the named colors.
Um, City of Ass is a strictly better Grand Coliseum; a card you not only voted for, but ranked hither than Paliano.
I just noticed that city of ass didn't deal damage to you for tapping it *forhead smack*
I thought the idea was to vote the way we would pick cards at P1P1? Given the option, I would never take City of Ass (or any Un cards) that early and if I took a land at P1P1 I would absolutely take all 20 of the choices from my list over it. I don't think that's skewing the vote in a negative way. I also didn't vote for Mana Crypt in my colorless vote. I did that because I don't take that card P1P1. It's fine, but it's killed me or put me in range for death enough times to give it a stigma. Everyone has a right to vote the way they see fit. It doesn't skew the data, it is the data.
You do have a point. I looked through the initial post and at no point did it say to vote on cards that you should pick if you wanted to win.
I thought it was implied, but implications maybe aren't strong enough in what's often percieved as a casual format.
If your criteria for evaluating P1P1 cards is independent of winning or good logic, then eh, exclude mana crypt all you want
I do play Secure the Wastes first. And because of how the instant/sorcery "creature" spells have been playing in these kinds of decks, I was looking for another good effect. I think this might be one of them.
I'm guessing battle screech would be the next most powerful instant/sorcery "creature" spell that you aren't playing.
Seems better than this card, though I have played neither in a cube enviornment. Requires more set up than increasing devotion (white creatures) but also a strong card in white token decks.
Wouldn't be surprised if martial coup filled the same roll increasing devotion does... but better.
Im also surprised at the high L&S ratings. Given the consistancy of the ranking, I think I need to take a harder look at the sword...
It's insane in grindy matchups, (likely second best sword in constrcuted), but I find there's a little too many haymaker based decks in cube for gaining 3 life + raise dead to be the effect I want..
Even the control decks tend to get super bomby finishers out at a reasonable pace. Therefore grinding value is only something I want to be doing in decks with a diversity of answers. Decks that can deal with many of the end game finishers.
BG value based decks are great with L&S, but in ramp decks or agro decks, I want my card advantage to be more in the getting my opponent dead asap direction.
I like Body and mind because it ends the game by itself the fastest, and still creates value if it doesn't end the game.
With the quick and dirty solution of trimming 2 off the top and bottom... Surprisingly few changes! Thought it would make a bigger difference. I expect it to make a bigger difference in colorless voting.
I misunderstood the formula earlier too, trimmean(RANGE,.2) trims 10% off top/bottom, not .1.
Here's new rankings of the changed cards, and what cards they swapped positioned with
Blue: Mana Drain #4 <-> Tinker #5
Red: Inferno Titan #9 <-> Young Pyromancer #10 Daretti Scrap Servant #18 <-> Sarkhan #19
Black: Mind Twist #1 <-> Recurring nightmare #2 Thoughtseize #13<-> Imperial Seal #14
White: Hero of Bladehold #9 <-> Wrath of god #10 Brimaz #16<-> Oblivion Ring #17 Monastary mentor #18 <-> Moat #19
Green: Fauna Shaman #10 <-> Eureka #11
If it means anything, I agree with 7/9 of the changes in ranking
I can't find a function that gives a greater emphasis to culling out lower values than higher ones, but I think a trimmed mean with ignoring the highest 2 and lowest 2 values is superior to a normal mean.
The excel function would be TRIMMEAN(RANGE,.1)
Where range is like E1:E20 or whatever.
It would ignore the top 10% of values and the bottom 10%.
Although, I recommend using the MEAN function and manually changing the range to ignore the bottom 2-3 and top 1. Think the unreasonable outliers are biased on the downside more than the upside.
Over exaggeration, sure. utter crap? Definitely not.
You agree sylvan library isn't "ideal" draw, My comment specifically referred to your curve with sylvan library AND garruk. The weakness of the curve is the compounded effect of slightly underpowered agro creatures and sylvan library AND a merely "good" agro curve top, not great.
I definitely pushed an emotional button as you reading implications that I wasn't making. In neither logical language implication or from myself. I'll try to use less hyperbole and curse less in the future so we can have a more rational discussion.
Tend to curse and use hyperbole when I'm passionate about a subject. Wasn't mad or anything.
Definitely have to agree to disagree. Sorry if I offended you/zetsu, I'll be a bit more careful with my hyperbole in the future.
I'd say id put my money where my mouth is, but no good way of doing it in this context :/
And garruk is great in an agro deck, but either ramped into early or pushing an advantage.
The curve I mentioned INTO garruk is slow and disruptable, garruk won't put the game away, if the next spells you are casting are more jungle lions.
I was using hyperbole as well, a bad/slow draw can lose to that curve. But you are out of your mind if you think that's a good curve in a powered cube....
Replace sylvan library with any red two drop, then replace garruk with hellrider/sulfuric vortex/falkenrath/koth/hero of oxid ridge...
Assume a little interaction,
And you have the difference of half life before casting a big threat vs dead/in burn range.
I strongly disagree that garruk, eternal witness or sylvan library are first pick quality cards in an agressive strategy. Maybe in general, but jungle lion agro is definitly not the archetype I want to move into when I pick those cards early. They are way too slow if you are playing against competent drafters. If I lose to Jungle lion , curving into sylvan library, curving into vinelasher kudzu + tattermunge maniac curving into garruk relentless, I probably either got stuck on a land or I drafted a pile of shyt.
I agree that green has some good agressive gold cards (Warden is nice, fleecemane/qasali pride mage is great, Siege Rhino is awsome if u have the mana, Bloodbraid elf is sick, Sarkhan vol is great etc)
which is why I excluded "zoo" from my initial criticism. A deck composed of 3+ colors, with lots of green multi-colored agro creatures and an assortment of premium one drops and removal spells across those colors is very competitive. The point is I do not want to play ******* tattermunge maniac in that deck. heh. Only if I absolutely have to, to fill out my curve.
As a base agressive color, I think green is bad. You can build some very solid decks due to it's support colors(IE it'll be good if the other 35% of your deck is made up of premium agro cards from other colors, power, strip mine, swords etc).
But I think the deck would have been almost always be signifcantly better if you replaced the mono green cards with a random distribution of similar curved agressive cards from the other agro colors.
heh, didnt pull the comment in time, took it down cause of some language I used and didn't express my argument properly.
But, I have no clue how you think green agro (I'll define green agro as >65% green cards) is anything but a near-bottom tier archetype.
It lacks reach , lacks removal , lacks disruption, it has no first pick quality cards and the creatures aren't even better. Nacatl and Goyf are the only exceptions, and they aren't anything compared to the top agro cards in the other colors. There's actually nothing it does better than the other colors.
I can only wrap my head around it being good as a support roll (it's cards are comparible to lower-mid tier cards in other agro colors) if you lack quality playables and to fill out your curve.
My raging skepticism is only quelled by my respect for you and your vast cubing experience... I think you'd have to smash me multiple drafts with green agro, only way I can buy it haha
Oh well, they act as a nice divider for cards that I think are a level in power level above another group of cards.
Azorius:
1. Geist of St. Traft
2. Celestial colonnade
3. Azorius Signet
4. Detention Sphere
5. Supreme Verdict
6. Sphinx's Revelation
7. Dragonlord Ojutai
8. Talisman of Progress
9. Venser, The Sojourner
10. Ojutai's Command
Dimir:
1. Creeping Tarpit
2. Baleful Strix
3. Dimir Signet
4. Psycatog
5. Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
6. Talisman of Dominance
7. Dragonlord Silumgar
8. Ashiok, Nightmare weaver
9. Lim-dul's Vault
10. Nightveil spectre
Rakdos
1. Rakdos Cackler
2. Kologhan's Command
3. Falkenrath Aristocrat
4. Lavaclaw Reaches
5. Dreadbore
6. Grenzo, Dungeon warden
7. Murderous Redcap
8. Blightning
9. Rakdos' Return
10. Kologhan, The Storm's Fury
Gruul:
1. Bloodbraid Elf
2. Dragonlord Atarka
3. Raging Ravine
4. Ghor-clan Rampager
5. Sarkhan Vol
6. Ancient Grudge (huge disparity between powered and unpowered unfortunatly, assuming powered cube)
7. Xenagos, The Reveler
8. Orcish Lumberjack
9. Kird Ape
10. Huntmaster of the Fells
Selesnya
1. Kitchen Finks
2. Qasali Pridemage
3. Mirrai's wake
4. Avacyn's Pilgrim
5. Stirring Wildwood
6. Voice of Resurgence
7. Fleecemane Lion
8. Selesnya Charm
9. Knight of the Reliquary (Assuming cube without proper lands to abuse him with, can go up substantially in the right cube)
10. Dromoka's Command
The planeswalker side looks so boring and feels inconsistent with how they print planeswalkers.
My intuition only, but gonna call fake on this exact printing.
As is, damage output is too slow relative to the cost.
No good way to cast/flip her in one turn (you don't want to hold out to 5 mana in burn decks)
It's also too easy to disrupt.
But he's under apreciated on these forums, good card. In raw power level he's #4 or #5 orzhov for me, but loses out to weaker cards for curve reasons.
Lingering -> vindicate -> sorin #1 -> Obzedat/Gerrards Verdict -> Sorin #2 -> Unburial rites for me
ExActly. Sorry had to be a dick when pointing it out, but I was exposed to that type of thinking day in day out for 7 years from fishy poker players. All the bloody lips from repressing explanations manifested itself with a sarcastic Internet forum post.
They would lose with a great hand many times in a row , then not play it anymore because it burned them too many times. You'd be amazed how many otherwise smart people think like this. Winning players don't.
Mana crypt is an absurdly powerful card. There's a reason almost everyone has it high in their top 20.
It requires minor building around to utilize its full potential, but you can throw it in 90+ percent of decks and not think twice about it. Ideally if you p1p1 it, you draft a deck that has curves that end the game fast with a mana crypt in your opening hand.. Life gain is also important.
Passing it for anything other than another broken card is spewing value , no matter how unlucky you've been in the past with it.
I just noticed that city of ass didn't deal damage to you for tapping it *forhead smack*
You do have a point. I looked through the initial post and at no point did it say to vote on cards that you should pick if you wanted to win.
I thought it was implied, but implications maybe aren't strong enough in what's often percieved as a casual format.
If your criteria for evaluating P1P1 cards is independent of winning or good logic, then eh, exclude mana crypt all you want
I'm guessing battle screech would be the next most powerful instant/sorcery "creature" spell that you aren't playing.
Seems better than this card, though I have played neither in a cube enviornment. Requires more set up than increasing devotion (white creatures) but also a strong card in white token decks.
Wouldn't be surprised if martial coup filled the same roll increasing devotion does... but better.
It's insane in grindy matchups, (likely second best sword in constrcuted), but I find there's a little too many haymaker based decks in cube for gaining 3 life + raise dead to be the effect I want..
Even the control decks tend to get super bomby finishers out at a reasonable pace. Therefore grinding value is only something I want to be doing in decks with a diversity of answers. Decks that can deal with many of the end game finishers.
BG value based decks are great with L&S, but in ramp decks or agro decks, I want my card advantage to be more in the getting my opponent dead asap direction.
I like Body and mind because it ends the game by itself the fastest, and still creates value if it doesn't end the game.
1. Library of Alexandria
2. Strip mine
3. ONS/ZEN Fetchlands
4. ABU dual lands
5. RAV Shocklands
6. Paliano, The high city
7. Mana Confluence
8. City of Brass
9. Maze of Ith
10. Wasteland
11. Rishadan Port
12. Grand Coliseum
13. Mishra's Factory
14. Mutavault
15. Gemstone Mine
16. Ancient Tomb
17. Horizon Canopy
18. Filter lands
19. Evolving Wilds
20. Undiscovered Paradise
I misunderstood the formula earlier too, trimmean(RANGE,.2) trims 10% off top/bottom, not .1.
Here's new rankings of the changed cards, and what cards they swapped positioned with
Blue: Mana Drain #4 <-> Tinker #5
Red: Inferno Titan #9 <-> Young Pyromancer #10 Daretti Scrap Servant #18 <-> Sarkhan #19
Black: Mind Twist #1 <-> Recurring nightmare #2 Thoughtseize #13<-> Imperial Seal #14
White: Hero of Bladehold #9 <-> Wrath of god #10 Brimaz #16<-> Oblivion Ring #17 Monastary mentor #18 <-> Moat #19
Green: Fauna Shaman #10 <-> Eureka #11
If it means anything, I agree with 7/9 of the changes in ranking
Looked a little more into it and trimming the mean is a common statistical aproximation.
http://www.real-statistics.com/descriptive-statistics/outliers-and-robustness/
I can't find a function that gives a greater emphasis to culling out lower values than higher ones, but I think a trimmed mean with ignoring the highest 2 and lowest 2 values is superior to a normal mean.
The excel function would be TRIMMEAN(RANGE,.1)
Where range is like E1:E20 or whatever.
It would ignore the top 10% of values and the bottom 10%.
Although, I recommend using the MEAN function and manually changing the range to ignore the bottom 2-3 and top 1. Think the unreasonable outliers are biased on the downside more than the upside.