Yeah occult epiphany is awsome and probably better than both.
FWIW , I’m near 100% confident that chrome host seedshark is a higher pick than shark typhoon in the significant majority of blue decks. Though, I'm slightly biased by it over-performing for me in multiple drafts recently and shark typhoon was cut from LSV's cube, which is what I've been primarily drafting these days.
WOW, have times changed. The addition of monarch/initiative and power crept creatures has brought creature decks to the front and center where fury can really shine.
Fury was a top tier red card the second it was printed, well before initiative was even a thing. It did not need any future printings or meta shifts for it to suddenly become front and center. The typical reaction was "wow, this card is a lot better than I originally gave it credit for", not "wow, this card went from being mid to top tier over time due to initiative and other recent printings."
You paraphrased using quotations then mis-represented my point. That wasn’t my claim.
Yes it was top tier the moment it was printed and it also got much better with the way the format shifted as new cards got added.
Both are true. I thought it would be good at the time it was spoiled and said it was "much more impressive than I thought it would be" in a field heavy with draw-go-blue/artifact ramp/reanimator..
My points early in this thread (which were wrong) , were based on my old paradigm that red agro is an all-in deck filled with jackal pups and burn.
In a meta with a lot of blue decks, reanimator decks and artifact ramp decks, fury is less impressive (though still much more impressive than I thought it would be).
WOW, have times changed. The addition of monarch/initiative and power crept creatures has brought creature decks to the front and center where fury can really shine.
Chonky red has also gotten way better. Inti, gut, bombardiers, bonecrusher giant, laelia, ragavan, fable of the mirror breaker, many great splashable 4's, boros 5's...
I used to laugh at the idea of including pyrokenesis and flame slash in my cube and now I think they are better than all the 2 mana+ red burn spells. Red creatures can truly hold their weight now.
Wow, I like chrome host seedshark the most of the 3 by a lot.
it’s so good.. the 2/4 flying body is a house on defense and exactly what you want to be doing in a slower blue deck that isn’t all in on a combo. The synergies with artifacts are awsome too.
I love to pair it with free pitch spells like FOW/pyrokensis/mine collapse.
I like shark typhoon and happy to have it in my cube, but I find it a bit mana inefficient in a fast powered environment with lots of agressive decks.
mulldrifter is distant last. Would only main deck it with reanimation spells or ephemerate.
I'd say it's a better Cultivate overall. In my experience my green decks running cultivate are base green and looking to fix for splashes with the Cultivate; going from 2G to 1GG feels less taxing for green than it might be for other colours.
The upside of cashing in a dork or ETB value greature (like reclamation sage) feels like a fair trade off for the extra pip.
I Having to sacrifice a creature is definitely worse than pitching a card from your hand,
Is it? I think it's about even. Some effects would much rather sac a thing than pitch a card. In the mid-late game pitching a card is less appealing than sacing an out classed body.
I think the "non-token" clause is a sign it was too good and it had to be toned down a bit.
Yeah saccing a non-token green creature is a much bigger drawback than exiling a green card from your hand for a ramp spell.
Ramp decks depend on speed/tempo and will happily trade a card to be able to cast a more expensive bomb early. Because cultivate is a ramp AND value spell, it wouldn't even come at card disadvantage.
If it had a pitch option instead, it would be very close to a modal spell of a 0 mana rampant growth or a
3 mana cultivate if it were templated that way. Busted.
I think this is only playable in a deck with workshop or academy (and a couple other fringe artifact decks).
I don't agree with this take. I think you're looking at this too much as a mana sink and not enough as a modal 2 drop that can go crazy with token generators. The value of this card doesn't come from how much mana you can pump into it, but with how many tokens your deck can pump out. It's rarely going to scale beyond 5 mana, but that's not unrealistic since green pairs best with this since it has the best combination of ramp and token generation. It's a pretty reasonable 2 drop considering the 5 mana mode it has , this is essentially a different take on Intrepid Adversary really.
ah, I totally mis processed the card. For some reason I only thought it pumped itself on ETB from its own tokens.
that makes it less narrow than I thought (tho still narrow).
I like it in a deck with a high token density as well.
That may push it over the edge into testing territory for me now
This card is really good imo, but not broken. Boros and the 3 slot is SO stacked in both white and red though, so ....
I ignored a few really powerful cards with this logic, so maybe it's worth a test.
That equipment is stronger than any sword of X and Y cube and getting a 3/3 body alongside it is no joke
It's at minimum a strong channel payoff. That's too narrow for me considering there's plenty of competition that falls under that category, a few of which does that job better and those cards also have better interactions with other cheat spells.
Costing 12 life is brutal for reanimate, and for animate dead/necromancy the leave the battlefield trigger can be pretty backbreaking if the enchantment gets dealt with.
It's definitely powerful though... Wouldn't hate on anyone adding it for variety/funsies.
It's worth remembering about if a couple key combo cards get printed that help cheat into play the cast trigger or the madness trigger.
With psychic frog being printed and a potential madness theme in MH3, this card is worth a revist.
The best madness card available for cube that I've seen.
With enough looting effects this card is quite strong.
At first appraisal, I'd guess the rank as the #2 Dimir behind baleful strix.
It interacts favorably with all sorts of dimir synergies and is a legit powerhouse with draw 7's.
Curving this into echo of eons for example is particularly nasty.
Dimir is so good at disruption that getting this card to connect and become a 2 mana draw a card every turn is not that hard.
Mega bonus points for being a nostalgic throwback, cute and create interesting gameplay decisions.
Against creature heavy decks it's not that good, but threatens to be an annoying blocker, or swing back to draw an extra card if there's a tempo race.
I think if your cube has a lot of cheap creatures and removal this is a very powerful card.
If creatures are dying a lot and there are fair deck mirror matches etc.
I don't know HOW good it is, but it is worthy of test.
I see it as much more of an aggressive card than sevinne's reclamation.
I don't like sevinne's reclamation much in mono white but I'd love this card in mono white.
I like sevinne's reclamation in midrang with looting effects or powerful permanants to return from the GY like Oko, 3-Teferri, strip mine, combo pieces etc.
I could see classifying this as a boros card under the strictest definition. It is maximized in boros by referencing controlling a red card as part of one of it's abilities.
I personally would classify this as white.
card is nutso for sure
Valki God of Lies v Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast v Kolaghan's Command, pick one.
Other cards in section are Fire Covenant and Chaos Defiler (Covenant is being tested, may not stay).
Valki in distant last.
I think Kcommand , daretti and fire covenant are pretty close. Depends a lot on your cube. How deep on artifacts you on, how much you support agro etc.
I have fire covenant (barely) in last place out of those cards, but the people I've been cubing with recently have it as their #1 red/black card *shrug*.
The cube is competitive (players are high skill and trying to win more than trying to have fun), there's a lot of people fighting for white/initiative and the red section is very dense with creatures. There's a lot of cheap creature decks running around which fire covenant excels vs. It's also a little lighter on artifacts than my own or the mtgo vintage cube, so kcommand and daretti's stock drops a bit.
Daretti is the most "interesting" card to me out of all them for what that's worth
FWIW , I’m near 100% confident that chrome host seedshark is a higher pick than shark typhoon in the significant majority of blue decks. Though, I'm slightly biased by it over-performing for me in multiple drafts recently and shark typhoon was cut from LSV's cube, which is what I've been primarily drafting these days.
You paraphrased using quotations then mis-represented my point. That wasn’t my claim.
Yes it was top tier the moment it was printed and it also got much better with the way the format shifted as new cards got added.
Both are true. I thought it would be good at the time it was spoiled and said it was "much more impressive than I thought it would be" in a field heavy with draw-go-blue/artifact ramp/reanimator..
In a meta with a lot of blue decks, reanimator decks and artifact ramp decks, fury is less impressive (though still much more impressive than I thought it would be).
WOW, have times changed. The addition of monarch/initiative and power crept creatures has brought creature decks to the front and center where fury can really shine.
Chonky red has also gotten way better. Inti, gut, bombardiers, bonecrusher giant, laelia, ragavan, fable of the mirror breaker, many great splashable 4's, boros 5's...
I used to laugh at the idea of including pyrokenesis and flame slash in my cube and now I think they are better than all the 2 mana+ red burn spells. Red creatures can truly hold their weight now.
it’s so good.. the 2/4 flying body is a house on defense and exactly what you want to be doing in a slower blue deck that isn’t all in on a combo. The synergies with artifacts are awsome too.
I love to pair it with free pitch spells like FOW/pyrokensis/mine collapse.
I like shark typhoon and happy to have it in my cube, but I find it a bit mana inefficient in a fast powered environment with lots of agressive decks.
mulldrifter is distant last. Would only main deck it with reanimation spells or ephemerate.
Yeah saccing a non-token green creature is a much bigger drawback than exiling a green card from your hand for a ramp spell.
Ramp decks depend on speed/tempo and will happily trade a card to be able to cast a more expensive bomb early. Because cultivate is a ramp AND value spell, it wouldn't even come at card disadvantage.
If it had a pitch option instead, it would be very close to a modal spell of a 0 mana rampant growth or a
3 mana cultivate if it were templated that way. Busted.
My instinct was that the extra green pip was barely worth the sac option, but some points here made me re-evaluate.
free spells nearly always play out better than they seem, so I’d be surprised if this was an exception.
The 3-drop utility creature -> sac is prob the most common use case scenario I could see.
Dunno how much better it makes the card than cultivate… prob not much but look forward to being wrong.
ah, I totally mis processed the card. For some reason I only thought it pumped itself on ETB from its own tokens.
that makes it less narrow than I thought (tho still narrow).
I like it in a deck with a high token density as well.
That may push it over the edge into testing territory for me now
I ignored a few really powerful cards with this logic, so maybe it's worth a test.
That equipment is stronger than any sword of X and Y cube and getting a 3/3 body alongside it is no joke
Costing 12 life is brutal for reanimate, and for animate dead/necromancy the leave the battlefield trigger can be pretty backbreaking if the enchantment gets dealt with.
It's definitely powerful though... Wouldn't hate on anyone adding it for variety/funsies.
It's worth remembering about if a couple key combo cards get printed that help cheat into play the cast trigger or the madness trigger.
The best madness card available for cube that I've seen.
With enough looting effects this card is quite strong.
At first appraisal, I'd guess the rank as the #2 Dimir behind baleful strix.
It interacts favorably with all sorts of dimir synergies and is a legit powerhouse with draw 7's.
Curving this into echo of eons for example is particularly nasty.
Dimir is so good at disruption that getting this card to connect and become a 2 mana draw a card every turn is not that hard.
Mega bonus points for being a nostalgic throwback, cute and create interesting gameplay decisions.
Against creature heavy decks it's not that good, but threatens to be an annoying blocker, or swing back to draw an extra card if there's a tempo race.
If creatures are dying a lot and there are fair deck mirror matches etc.
I don't know HOW good it is, but it is worthy of test.
I see it as much more of an aggressive card than sevinne's reclamation.
I don't like sevinne's reclamation much in mono white but I'd love this card in mono white.
I like sevinne's reclamation in midrang with looting effects or powerful permanants to return from the GY like Oko, 3-Teferri, strip mine, combo pieces etc.
I personally would classify this as white.
card is nutso for sure
Valki in distant last.
I think Kcommand , daretti and fire covenant are pretty close. Depends a lot on your cube. How deep on artifacts you on, how much you support agro etc.
I have fire covenant (barely) in last place out of those cards, but the people I've been cubing with recently have it as their #1 red/black card *shrug*.
The cube is competitive (players are high skill and trying to win more than trying to have fun), there's a lot of people fighting for white/initiative and the red section is very dense with creatures. There's a lot of cheap creature decks running around which fire covenant excels vs. It's also a little lighter on artifacts than my own or the mtgo vintage cube, so kcommand and daretti's stock drops a bit.
Daretti is the most "interesting" card to me out of all them for what that's worth