The reason i dont run Sudden spoilings md is
1. Vs some match ups i does nothing...
2. When in topdeck mode i often need an answer to a problem, and spoilings doenst do it usually.
3. I really like MBC consistancy, thats why i play alot of 4'offs, therefore
4. The slots are really filled up by more consistant spells. Nuthing i can really take out for them, so they sb.
But to be fair, the card is pretty amazing in MANY match ups. I will consider it, but i would like to have more playble creatures to MD it.... There is a reason why Elves ran it with GREAT success.
Faeries: double check
G/W: quadruple check
Mono red beats: check
RDW: half check (they run SOME creatures)
Merfolk: check
Mana ramp(any colors): check
Elfball: check
ANY DECK WITH CREATURES: check
Please name a MU that spoiling can't do something against...
I run two in MD and one SB and I am never sad to see it.
Sure it requires more THINKING than damnation and terror, but its just as effective IMO.
As long as you run BB and deserts, it CAN be a answer to almost any creature. I run BB, deserts, AND mutavaults, and I never have any trouble finding Urborg thanks to BtQ
EDIT: alright, so there are creature-less decks, so you side removal out G2 in favor of discard/extirpate.
I honestly don't understand how you guys can NOT run spoiling MD...
Mabey you think its just a fog huh? NOT SO!
Like I said before IT IS ANOTHER WAY TO KILL CREATURES!
I also don't understand people who don't run desert as a 4 of, with BtQ you don't need to worry about getting urborg as BtQ is a great way to get it if necessary.
Also, most of you know this but... BB is a mandatory 3 of at least. The stall it gives you is invaluable.
Oh, and Oona...
While she looks good on paper, the reality is that she raises your curve even higher. The high curve is what makes this deck have trouble against counters.
The addition of MD discard looks interesting, I might try it out.
Not so sure about the LD though, namely Smallpox as we don't really have spare lands early game. Its Not a CA card at all. Or even Tempo as we arn't currently running mind stone or other artifact accel.
For those that run only 3 Demigod, do you ever find that you are lacking creatures? I know from running four sometimes I get stuck with 2 in my hand, but am a little worried if I were to run 3 I wouldn't be getting the most out of its reanimating ability.
Nope, keep in mind that if you run BtQ you don't really have to play that many copies of cards other than core cards.
Thing is, its not aggro this deck has problems with (unless you REALLY have no idea how to play it, no offense meant to anyone ) , its the more controlling decks that can veto your answers/threats, thats what thoughtseize and extirpate are for. BB and spoiling are amazing in all games I have played.
Well for one thing, Tombstalker would not work quite as well in some builds because they use things that don't hit the yard (BB) and things that come back (epoch) and reanimation (profane).
My build in particular I try to avoid spending cards whenever possible.
If a Sudden Spoiling Combat trick (with BB tokens, desert, and mutavault) would work just as well as a Damnation, I use it instead. Thus saving my creatures (mabey a korlash, mabey a demigod). With draw that is so unreliable(urchins) its good to get used to milking the most of cards.
EDIT: about vess, if we were running diabolic tutor then it would not be a problem, ATM however the earliest you could tutor for her with BtQ is turn 5. She might be worth it as a test, but she will rarely get summoned with BtQ as you SHOULD be using that to get what you need earlier(urchins, BB, warhammer, sudden death, sudden spoiling, mentor, slaughter pact, another korlash for grandure) you name it, and there is a card 4cc or lower that can deal with it.
I understand that you use it to neuter an opponents creature, but I think there are better options.
Sudden Spoiling will not stop a Sheilded Leige or Cavaliers. The sudden spoiling takes effect on stack 6b and the shield takes effect in 6c/d. So we have to deal with it before the sheild gets on it.
You sure about that?, I thought it cancels anything that came before it, since the aura came in before.
EDIT: spoiling has never let me down, about half the time it ends up as a one sided wrath. Between BB tokens, mutavault, and desert there are plenty of things that can zap them once they are small and with no teeth.
Congrats with the results, And we all appriciate the match by match analysis!!! Didnt look like you had easy match ups at all.
I like your list, its very similar to mine, only thing i can question is not running the usual 4-ofs (like damnations, bitterblossom, tenrals...etc) But running like 3-offs and Btq. How has that worked out for you? Also wanted to know how 24 lands was with no accel as well as 4 demigods. I would rather run 4 bbz, and 3 demigods, just my 0.02....
Keep in mind that Korlash IS acceleration if you use it right. Unless you are sure that they have a way to easily kill a Korlash, Grandure your extra one, sometimes thats a good play as any with BtQ. A way to easily get korlash above the opponents creatures and sometimes boost you over them in terms of lands.
EDIT: The only things I run 4 of are korlash, urchins, BB, and damnation, everything else is 1,2,3 ofs, depending on how useful it has proved.
But if all they do is burning down our lands, and we basically can get back any land we want, then sooner or later they will be out of gas, also they are probably not dealing us much dmg if they spend all their cards and mana to take out one of our lands each turn who just keeps coming back for free.
You have obviously never faced a revilark control deck packing avalanche riders, they can remove several lands per turn with Blink and have plenty of recursion.
Crucible might eventually win but they will kill you with 2/2s before you can recover that way. Viable against regular LD decks mabey as they generally have a little less recursion.
An other question guys, why dont you like scarscale ritual? i have not seen any deck here with another card to draw than urchins, and S. ritual can be used it a faerie or in urchins, or even in a huge korlash.
We don't use it mainly because there is not room, there is so much we want to include.
Second, sometimes it is just not dependable. BtQ can always get you what you need, provided that you have enough lands.
About loxodon, first you need 1 turn to play it, second you need almost another whole turn to equip the hammer, and what if your creature gets bounced, or killed, or removed from the game? I preffer to play another profane command to give korlash or demigod fear.
And an other bad thing it's that if the oponnet sideboared everlasting torment, or artifact destroy(very common now) we are also playing a very weak card.
It is true that corrupt is not as good as before, but you can hit the oponnent with it, and sometimes in the game that more usefull than to target a creature, anyway corrupt gives you the option to choose what to do.
Nameless inversion is not a great card, but terror is as good or as bad than N.I. The difference is that with terror you cant kill black, or indestructible things and in treefolks are a lot of those and now that black is comming back i see alot of problems with terror.
In the other hand you are right about the bad things with N.I but IMO nameless is more fuctional.
PD: sorry if my english sucks lol
lol, warhammer has undeniable game winning effects, its most useful partner is actually Bitterblossom, it is one way to make those tokens deadly to a lot more creatures. Thus saving you the need to use removal. Plus with BB its not as if you're going to be without a creature.
I agree on every point, with possible exception to Extirpate (might just be my meta, but I've never found it to be useful), and I haven't tested BtQ yet, but I will once I pick up a pair of them. I haven't tested out Sudden Spoiling yet either, but I've been in many situations where I wish I had it, so it's going in the board for sure for me.
EDIT: Oh, I don't see any reason to use Corrosive Mentor, either, the BB tokens do a fine job of stalling without wither, and running the mentor means you need to stall for longer to actually draw your useful spells (drawing the mentor means you didn't draw the card you were stalling for in the first place).
The mentor just makes them able to actually kill big things. Thats not useful at all.
Seriously though a lot of games the only early game stall you have is BB (Dusk Urchins is only good for two blocks, MAX), I'd much rather have tokens that whittle down the creatures you are chumping. He also helps against persist, which can be annoying.
When playing against Counterspells, you try and draw out the counter with spells you dont really care about. They can't counter everything. In regards to the faeries matchup, having Imp's Mischief in the sb could help by denying their card advantage with Ancestral Visions.
The problem there is that there are no spells in this deck that we don't really care about, if there were they would soon get cut for ones that actually do something.
Imps Mischief seems way too situational for my tastes, we need cards that can fit into multiple situations, Like spoiling and profane.
Faeries: double check
G/W: quadruple check
Mono red beats: check
RDW: half check (they run SOME creatures)
Merfolk: check
Mana ramp(any colors): check
Elfball: check
ANY DECK WITH CREATURES: check
Please name a MU that spoiling can't do something against...
I run two in MD and one SB and I am never sad to see it.
Sure it requires more THINKING than damnation and terror, but its just as effective IMO.
As long as you run BB and deserts, it CAN be a answer to almost any creature. I run BB, deserts, AND mutavaults, and I never have any trouble finding Urborg thanks to BtQ
EDIT: alright, so there are creature-less decks, so you side removal out G2 in favor of discard/extirpate.
Mabey you think its just a fog huh? NOT SO!
Like I said before IT IS ANOTHER WAY TO KILL CREATURES!
I also don't understand people who don't run desert as a 4 of, with BtQ you don't need to worry about getting urborg as BtQ is a great way to get it if necessary.
Also, most of you know this but... BB is a mandatory 3 of at least. The stall it gives you is invaluable.
And Trip Noose? Come on people, thats what spoiling is for, take away their pro black and block with a couple of BB tokens/desert/mutavault. Or even Sudden Spoiling then Sudden Death.
Oh, and Oona...
While she looks good on paper, the reality is that she raises your curve even higher. The high curve is what makes this deck have trouble against counters.
The addition of MD discard looks interesting, I might try it out.
Not so sure about the LD though, namely Smallpox as we don't really have spare lands early game. Its Not a CA card at all. Or even Tempo as we arn't currently running mind stone or other artifact accel.
Nope, keep in mind that if you run BtQ you don't really have to play that many copies of cards other than core cards.
Has anyone considered running Ghastlord of Fugue?
It dies to anything that Demigod dies to and helps control their hand too.
Thing is, its not aggro this deck has problems with (unless you REALLY have no idea how to play it, no offense meant to anyone
EDIT: oh and LD decks......
My build in particular I try to avoid spending cards whenever possible.
If a Sudden Spoiling Combat trick (with BB tokens, desert, and mutavault) would work just as well as a Damnation, I use it instead. Thus saving my creatures (mabey a korlash, mabey a demigod). With draw that is so unreliable(urchins) its good to get used to milking the most of cards.
EDIT: about vess, if we were running diabolic tutor then it would not be a problem, ATM however the earliest you could tutor for her with BtQ is turn 5. She might be worth it as a test, but she will rarely get summoned with BtQ as you SHOULD be using that to get what you need earlier(urchins, BB, warhammer, sudden death, sudden spoiling, mentor, slaughter pact, another korlash for grandure) you name it, and there is a card 4cc or lower that can deal with it.
You sure about that?, I thought it cancels anything that came before it, since the aura came in before.
EDIT: spoiling has never let me down, about half the time it ends up as a one sided wrath. Between BB tokens, mutavault, and desert there are plenty of things that can zap them once they are small and with no teeth.
Hammer does the life gain thing AND gives trample.
I can't see that hitting MB, Consume Spirit would be played MB before that most likely.
Keep in mind that Korlash IS acceleration if you use it right. Unless you are sure that they have a way to easily kill a Korlash, Grandure your extra one, sometimes thats a good play as any with BtQ. A way to easily get korlash above the opponents creatures and sometimes boost you over them in terms of lands.
EDIT: The only things I run 4 of are korlash, urchins, BB, and damnation, everything else is 1,2,3 ofs, depending on how useful it has proved.
I DO think that crucible is a viable counter to traditional LD decks though.
EDIT: Thoughtseize +extirpate +crucible would probably be what I would use against Lark LD.
You have obviously never faced a revilark control deck packing avalanche riders, they can remove several lands per turn with Blink and have plenty of recursion.
Crucible might eventually win but they will kill you with 2/2s before you can recover that way. Viable against regular LD decks mabey as they generally have a little less recursion.
Its especially good when you run Desert and/or Mutavault
We don't use it mainly because there is not room, there is so much we want to include.
Second, sometimes it is just not dependable. BtQ can always get you what you need, provided that you have enough lands.
lol, warhammer has undeniable game winning effects, its most useful partner is actually Bitterblossom, it is one way to make those tokens deadly to a lot more creatures. Thus saving you the need to use removal. Plus with BB its not as if you're going to be without a creature.
The mentor just makes them able to actually kill big things. Thats not useful at all.
Seriously though a lot of games the only early game stall you have is BB (Dusk Urchins is only good for two blocks, MAX), I'd much rather have tokens that whittle down the creatures you are chumping. He also helps against persist, which can be annoying.
The problem there is that there are no spells in this deck that we don't really care about, if there were they would soon get cut for ones that actually do something.
Imps Mischief seems way too situational for my tastes, we need cards that can fit into multiple situations, Like spoiling and profane.