DV here is the thing: even if you want to argue that EtR responded in a townie way (which I have belatedly come to agree with) his was did not form on weak reasons. Tau's gotcha was a valid reason for a wagon to form! It would have been super weird if one didn't. That's what makes it different to the Tubba situation. There are valid reasons for the RtR wagon to diffuse now but that does not make the initial pile on incorrect.
Now for assuming town vs scum it's not the same as sorting for a t/s list. When a null read makes a statement I generally approach it with that 75% town worldview. Doesn't make them a town read but I generally accept statements at face value unless I have reason not to. Which is in line with a default assumption of town. I don't know if that's how most people do it but it seems to be the case since people will call people a strong scum read and then guesstimate a 40% chance to flip scum.
Read walls don't adhere to that because they are an effort to show people's alignments relative to the default assumption. It's why people complain about having too many scum reads.
Anyway I am discounting Tubba's "one massively scummy post" because posts like that tend to come from hyper active town and not scum. Yes it is anti-town to want to chain kill both people involved in the FPS without thinking about it but I don't think it's scum indicative. If you disagree that's fine. You being so focused on that post is why I'm explicitly not as interested in you being scum off that wagon. You clearly believe it's much more indicative than I believe it to be making you being on the wagon much more natural.
Tom and Rhand don't have that excuse. And as for game flow I guess that's my argument too because I'd expect scum to want to be not all on the main wagon but also not voting off in nowhere land. So they would be eager to be on anything else hot.
It's a high powered role but that doesn't mean the game is high powered. If the setup is just say the N0 check, a 1 shot vig, and a limited shot doc and scum has an RB and a rolecop that's low powered and low complexity despite a few high powered roles.
@Wisp I don't recall saying your reads are level zero this game but what does that have to do with an unnatural wagon formation that most people on it admit wasn't as valid as they thought when wagoning? And why don't you find it valid? Is it because you were on it and my saying what I'm saying feels like a personal attack?
@GJ my read is super stale but I locked KJ in as town because he was doing a lot of the stuff he and Eco had talked about in spec chats when KJ was trying to improve. A lot of Ecos advice was focused on how to be a better team player and I could feel KJ actively trying to do that in the early game.
The check does nothing for me other than explain why he was hard town reading me early. This game was designed to be simple and presumably low power so I could buy there being a N0 peek on a townie given who our mods are.
@EtR so first off you only pulled 2 quotes relevant at the start. The first one is from well after the language tell and is about you/Tau.
Anyway setting that aside all of those you have Rhand setting up the language tell, Tom naked voting, Wisp questioning a couple town reads, and Mindreaver putting a solid scum read on me.
I guess you're technically correct. I didn't consider it real pressure because Tom and wisp both move votes like crazy but to someone less familiar with them it looks more serious.
When wagons pop up around the time I'd expect scum to be looking for a counter wagon and the reasoning turns out to be garbage for anyone to be on that wagon I'm going to assume there were scum involved.
If it proves to be wrong and that was a pure wagon at end game by all means shove my face in it like I'm a dog who made a mess on the hardwood floors, but given that you suspect Rhand your outrage at my correct statements feels like your temper getting the better of you.
@DV right so in a world where the default assumption by math is town the affirmative statement is that Tubba is scum. Which is what wagoning him did. I don't see evidence for that affirmative statement and all the reasons presented are bull (Tom basically admitted his was) so I've concluded it was a scum motivated wagon. I don't have strong feelings that Tubba is super duper obvious townie but your little wagon mates had super duper strong feels that he was scum (thus making an affirmative statment) which is why you wagoned him so checkmate atheists.
Like I get it you are smarter than I am but you're jumping through some hoops here to shift the goal posts.
P.S. as I said to wisp earlier and have stated multiple times I never had a hard town read on Tubba, I just had the perspective to see that the scum reads were not substantiated.
So the post needs to be in whole for the mistake to make sense.
This post is clearly designed to be commenting on things as they happen. But the two sections I've put in bold highlight how there seems to be additional information here.
Up to page 2, I'm not super sure why everyone is piling up on LastWhisper so far. I'm not seeing anything crazy.
Nevermind, the whole entry post thing is weird. Not scummy per se, but weird.
[quote from="Lastwhisper »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/805970-death-in-the-family-day-1-just-the-beginning?comment=20"]god all these rvs votes are poop
But... You just made an RVS vote!
This seems weird to me.
Also, if you don't like random voting, contribute meaningfully and get the game out of RVS
Think ill vote kami
And not explain at all but heavily imply i have a really good reason that will inevitably disappoint everyone when i finally reveal it
You do realize RVS is over right? Why are you randomly voting for kami?
Now, Riku and Rodemy look like town to me, while tom and wisp look like scum to me. Vote: tomsloger.
Says the wisp post really sounds like scum, also points out Toms post as disliked. He's chosen someone with no heat and also the leading (as of the read) wagon. ZD has earned 1 scum point.
@killjoy
Rhand has had a very townie entrance and has continued to stay townie so far at least, where does your scum lean come from? Also I'm at work so if I misread your post, I'm sorry
What's the difference between Rhand's entrance and Lngrr's in your mind?
Why are people disliking Grape? Help me.
Question Time (starting page 5)
@TAU - what are your thoughts on Tubba and KA
@Rhand - what are your thoughts on Riku and Vaimes
@Wisp - Top Town Read?
@Tom - Top Town Read?
I voted August for pressure because let’s face it, *****s kicking off an they provided nothing
Any questions for me that I missed?
You're trying to pressure the wind. Stop it.
There wasn't significant pressure on me before Rhands verb case. There were bits and pieces but nothing significant. I don't know what EtR would have read other than scum chat to know I was getting hammered before getting to Rhands verb meta.
Burden of proof lies with the person trying to prove someone scummy. Default assumption is town by math.
But Tubba reads exactly like he did in friends and enemies to me.
Tom is super scummy and just frustrated because I nailed him and gloating because I can't explain it. I can say that because he's on V/LA.
EtR is scum not just because of the gambit but because his catch up implies too much information. It has key parts out of order in what is otherwise a sequential stream of conciousness post.
Then we've wasted a ton of digital oxygen but that's a likely outcome. There is never more than 1 scum in that group. I think Tom and Rhand are both much more likely to be scum than DV.
you still dont have a valid reason on me bro
You're positionally scummy for wagon timings and the way the air smelt tonight.
[Spoiler]You're taking stands that feel like scum you stands. The way you're prioritizing your pushes feels wrong. And I just don't believe that you think the things you've said you're thinking. Maybe it's because you actually don't but you being scum feels more accurate.[/quote]
@Wisp Too early for that tight of a town bloc but Iwould guess there are at least 2 in that group.
Then we've wasted a ton of digital oxygen but that's a likely outcome. There is never more than 1 scum in that group. I think Tom and Rhand are both much more likely to be scum than DV.
@DV gotcha. I used tunnel wrong. I used it as in you're holding an incorrect read despite evidence you shouldn't and you're wrong to think that Tubba was ever scummy outside that 1 post. Not as in the standard meaning of being singularly focused on him.
@Tom so did you push him or positional counterwagon reasons or because he was scummy? Or both?
@Wisp and DV at least half that wagon was RVS. If you want to call my contributions to it bad then fine. There are two bad wagons but 1 was caused by a combination of RVS and confirmed (fmpov) town trolling for reactions. I'm not as interested in dissecting that one for scum as I am the second one.
And specifically for DV what exactly is my attack that's invalid because you're no longer pushing Tubba?
I feel so loved. Don't push bad wagons and I won't push you. Easy.
Then you should have pushed Tubba!
Cause that was a bad wagon, which is why I pushed him. I then got off of him after he started talking. You make it seem like I'm on him still, I'm not.
Because we totally stop looking at behavior after an unvote. Completely invalidates what came before it. Anyway after wisp you look the best off that mess, but not totally clear. I'm glad you and tom aren't pushing him anymore but like do you expect me to set that whole mess aside and forget it happened? I regret not listening to you on Rhand earlier but I'm still not super convinced he's scum.
This is a bit of a hot take but I don't think there has been another bad wagon this game. With the possible exception of rod if you want to count that as a wagon from the early game.
Now for assuming town vs scum it's not the same as sorting for a t/s list. When a null read makes a statement I generally approach it with that 75% town worldview. Doesn't make them a town read but I generally accept statements at face value unless I have reason not to. Which is in line with a default assumption of town. I don't know if that's how most people do it but it seems to be the case since people will call people a strong scum read and then guesstimate a 40% chance to flip scum.
Read walls don't adhere to that because they are an effort to show people's alignments relative to the default assumption. It's why people complain about having too many scum reads.
Anyway I am discounting Tubba's "one massively scummy post" because posts like that tend to come from hyper active town and not scum. Yes it is anti-town to want to chain kill both people involved in the FPS without thinking about it but I don't think it's scum indicative. If you disagree that's fine. You being so focused on that post is why I'm explicitly not as interested in you being scum off that wagon. You clearly believe it's much more indicative than I believe it to be making you being on the wagon much more natural.
Tom and Rhand don't have that excuse. And as for game flow I guess that's my argument too because I'd expect scum to want to be not all on the main wagon but also not voting off in nowhere land. So they would be eager to be on anything else hot.
@Wisp I don't recall saying your reads are level zero this game but what does that have to do with an unnatural wagon formation that most people on it admit wasn't as valid as they thought when wagoning? And why don't you find it valid? Is it because you were on it and my saying what I'm saying feels like a personal attack?
The check does nothing for me other than explain why he was hard town reading me early. This game was designed to be simple and presumably low power so I could buy there being a N0 peek on a townie given who our mods are.
Anyway setting that aside all of those you have Rhand setting up the language tell, Tom naked voting, Wisp questioning a couple town reads, and Mindreaver putting a solid scum read on me.
I guess you're technically correct. I didn't consider it real pressure because Tom and wisp both move votes like crazy but to someone less familiar with them it looks more serious.
It still feels wrong to me but it's plausible.
If it proves to be wrong and that was a pure wagon at end game by all means shove my face in it like I'm a dog who made a mess on the hardwood floors, but given that you suspect Rhand your outrage at my correct statements feels like your temper getting the better of you.
Like I get it you are smarter than I am but you're jumping through some hoops here to shift the goal posts.
P.S. as I said to wisp earlier and have stated multiple times I never had a hard town read on Tubba, I just had the perspective to see that the scum reads were not substantiated.
This post is clearly designed to be commenting on things as they happen. But the two sections I've put in bold highlight how there seems to be additional information here.
Says the wisp post really sounds like scum, also points out Toms post as disliked. He's chosen someone with no heat and also the leading (as of the read) wagon. ZD has earned 1 scum point.
There wasn't significant pressure on me before Rhands verb case. There were bits and pieces but nothing significant. I don't know what EtR would have read other than scum chat to know I was getting hammered before getting to Rhands verb meta.
But Tubba reads exactly like he did in friends and enemies to me.
Tom is super scummy and just frustrated because I nailed him and gloating because I can't explain it. I can say that because he's on V/LA.
EtR is scum not just because of the gambit but because his catch up implies too much information. It has key parts out of order in what is otherwise a sequential stream of conciousness post.
I mean I think that's possible. I dunno it's gut informed by things I can't articulate well.
You're positionally scummy for wagon timings and the way the air smelt tonight.
[Spoiler]You're taking stands that feel like scum you stands. The way you're prioritizing your pushes feels wrong. And I just don't believe that you think the things you've said you're thinking. Maybe it's because you actually don't but you being scum feels more accurate.[/quote]
@Wisp Too early for that tight of a town bloc but Iwould guess there are at least 2 in that group.
Then we've wasted a ton of digital oxygen but that's a likely outcome. There is never more than 1 scum in that group. I think Tom and Rhand are both much more likely to be scum than DV.
Don't let me forget.
@Wisp and DV at least half that wagon was RVS. If you want to call my contributions to it bad then fine. There are two bad wagons but 1 was caused by a combination of RVS and confirmed (fmpov) town trolling for reactions. I'm not as interested in dissecting that one for scum as I am the second one.
And specifically for DV what exactly is my attack that's invalid because you're no longer pushing Tubba?
Because we totally stop looking at behavior after an unvote. Completely invalidates what came before it.
This is a bit of a hot take but I don't think there has been another bad wagon this game. With the possible exception of rod if you want to count that as a wagon from the early game.