I think you're mimicing Jund a bit too closely. I think enabling Delirium would work better with blue over red using the sort of setup I outlined above.
If you want something to replace Temur Battle Rage though, look into Artful Dodge. It goes real well with Thought Scour and Grim Flayer.
The problem I'm having is fitting both cantrips and discard.
Not sure I agree. The build you outline above lacks Bauble and Wraith. Both filter cards for 0 and feed Goyf with artifact- and creature-type. Playing things like Bob instead of Wraith feels too slow and IMO defeats the whole purpose of Shadow Aggro. We may as well go back to playing Midrange.
Speaking of which: I'd like to add Flayer in the build for additional card filtering and Delirium-enabling. Contrary to Bob, I think he can fit the aggro archetype. Problem is: What do I cut? Jace may be the sacrificial lamb here, as he feels fragile and I'm not sure what he brings to the table is useful enough. Ideally, I'd like two Flayers so the next card to go would probably be an Ulvenwald.
Artful Dodge is a nice card and definitely worth considering. Not as impactful as Temur Battle Rage but the U is relevant and so is being able to flashback it. May add as a one-of in lieu of one of the Denials (I like these for protecting our two main wincons: Shadow and Goyf).
I think losing the jace makes sense. You're a very agressive deck by nature, so having another larger threat that pushes that gameplan forward makes more sense than a slow controlling planeswalkers.
Bur’s read on me is alright for a day 1 read. The “...but not giving town reads like free candy, which is a good sign.” is consistent with his previous questioning of those who did. He’s thrown out some questions in 68, but these were somewhat softball-y. Overall I need more out of him, but the stuff he has posted don’t read as scummy to me.
Just so I'm clear on what you're saying: You see Bur as mostly null with a slight town lean correct? Because that is lot of words to say you don't have much of a read.
What do you think of Bur so far? You implicate him slightly, but seems more contingent on being paired with Shadow. Anything stand out apart from that one interaction?
He's null so far, other than that one Shadow thing. I'm fairly sure we haven't played together, so I'm not a great authority on his tone/meta.
If you're null on Bur why did you say in 95 that you're agreeing with Gentleman Johnny? You actually don't seem to be agreeing with him on very much at all.
The cantrip aspect of it is nice. But the flashback on Artful Dodge seems too good to pass up in a thought scour + Liliana deck. Happy to see it go to the bin till it's relevant.
Completely agree with this if you're playing shadow you need some sort of I win button. Without the threat of battle rage Death's Shadow is much less threatening.
@Mindreaver Gruffin, Kit, logic, Bur and I all play on another site with Proph. I have played 2 games with Bur and 4ish with Kit. Gruffin has played more with the others than I have there.
I'm reasonably confident I can read Bur, but I was super wrong on him last time when he was scum but was my top town read. So take my confidence with a grain of salt.
What do you think of Bur so far? You implicate him slightly, but seems more contingent on being paired with Shadow. Anything stand out apart from that one interaction?
@Rhand I was using our because it was interacting with me. As for my quality I'm not really qualified to judge the quality of my banter because I of course think it's brilliant when it's probably stilted as hell in actuality.
As for the second part Bur is much more invested in playing the game as scum in my experience. I have seen town!Bur fold under light pressure while scum!Bur plays a much stronger game. Even with it being not a real thing I'd expect Bur to reply to it as town because of that meta quirk.
With Bur the tone just feels different to the signup thread. Bur has been busting my chops for a while because I can't read him at all, but this is a bit different. It feels more forced I guess I'd say. Also I've seen Bur jovial in pre and post game, haven't seen the joking tone in a game proper yet. But that is a limited meta read so take it with a grain of salt if you have more experience with Bur.
As for he 81 it's more that I don't see anything alignment indicative in Gruffin's 62 or 65. Gruffin is competent enough as scum to ask those base level questions. It feels very much like an unearned town read (that appears earned if you don't double check). I just can't see how you can town read someone for the two posts Bur pointed to.
Our early banter was awful and I don't like his response to Gruffin in 81. I also think town!Bur would have reacted to having 3 votes even if they're RVS votes. I don't like completely ignoring it.
Colder take Rhand is town despite the over-explaining in 34.
If you're not going to run vial you have to go heavier control. I think having actual counter magic becomes a must without it. I also agree on Phantasmal Image being bad without it. And that's why I run snapcaster mage. It has flash and that's pretty great.
On Tar Pit vs Lumbering falls I think it's heavily influenced by the rest of your list. Since I'm heavy on discard with 6 spells plus the 4 Lili's I can often activate Tar Pit on an empty handed opponent. In a list that is less interested in discard I would be much more interested in Lumbering Falls.
Your List looks very similar to a Abzan list, minus the pte and hierarchs. What are the strengths of this deck compared to Jund and Abzan? I'm in the process of getting cards for BG(x) decks and I really like the Sultai colors.
There are a few advantages. First thought scour is awesome with Delve and Grim Flayer. It reduces the need to run things like bauble and tarfire. Not many decks are built to handle turn 2 Tasigur.
Second Ancestral Vision is incredibly powerful. And given the cheap average CMC of the deck it's usually pretty easy to slip it into your curve.
Third Tar Pit is by far the best creature land of the B/x decks. Unblockable is so good.
Last access to Tiny Jace or Snapcaster out of the board is crazy strong. I'm on Jace at the moment because people have been bringing in GY hate and the looter side is better than the 2/1 against leyline and RiP.
Basically vs abzan the calculus is lingering souls, path, and better sideboard options vs thought scour, ancestral and tar pit.
Is there some kind of meta regarding Gentleman Johnny in relation to voting "no lynch"? And Shadow?
@ Hunt- were you trying to incite Shadow? Why? Why did you stop because of GJ?
@ Rhand- would you say not voting no lynch makes GJ more likely to be scum (however slightly) or was your vote purely random to you?
...GJ's icon has become animated and it's even creepier than before...
GJ loves to no lynch (or at least has the reputation of loving it). As for the relation to shadow, Huntzilla "caught" shadow with a reaction test based on no voting in Bare Bones before he replaced out. Caught in quotations because Shadow didn't get lynched for ages after that.
I've been playing UW spirits off and on as my fun deck for when I don't want to play super seriously. And the deck is awesome. My store has/had a lot of spell based combo to semi combo decks so it's definitely a decent meta call as well. Anyway I've been running a list much closer to the list SaffronOlive streamed with back when it first started to pick up steam.
Sideboard is in constant flux but the main is pretty settled. I definitely struggle against the fastest decks due to my lack of vials, but I really like how dense this deck is and how many ways it gives opponents to misplay into our different spells. I also love how low pain and consistent this mana base is. I do not like Nebelghast Herald without vial, even though triple Moorland haunt would seemingly make it welcome.
I know there are some suboptimal cards in the deck but I love passing with 3 untapped mana (with a moorland haunt) and my opponent not being sure whether to play around Remand, Queller, or Rattlechains for their turn.
Unfortunately this version is very lacking in power compared to Vial or CoCo builds and has to make up for it by being a good meta call and something your opponents are unfamiliar with. A lot of the power comes from misplays due to unfamiliarity/complexity of held mana you can present. This makes the deck an absolute blast and I highly recommend trying it out with the remands and Serums even if I know the power level is slightly lower.
Edit: I completely forgot to say but I especially love remand because it kind of fills the hole in the 2 mana slot this deck has had forever and pairs super well with Rattlechains.
I think losing the jace makes sense. You're a very agressive deck by nature, so having another larger threat that pushes that gameplan forward makes more sense than a slow controlling planeswalkers.
Just so I'm clear on what you're saying: You see Bur as mostly null with a slight town lean correct? Because that is lot of words to say you don't have much of a read.
If you're null on Bur why did you say in 95 that you're agreeing with Gentleman Johnny? You actually don't seem to be agreeing with him on very much at all.
The cantrip aspect of it is nice. But the flashback on Artful Dodge seems too good to pass up in a thought scour + Liliana deck. Happy to see it go to the bin till it's relevant.
I'm reasonably confident I can read Bur, but I was super wrong on him last time when he was scum but was my top town read. So take my confidence with a grain of salt.
What do you think of Bur so far? You implicate him slightly, but seems more contingent on being paired with Shadow. Anything stand out apart from that one interaction?
As for the second part Bur is much more invested in playing the game as scum in my experience. I have seen town!Bur fold under light pressure while scum!Bur plays a much stronger game. Even with it being not a real thing I'd expect Bur to reply to it as town because of that meta quirk.
As for he 81 it's more that I don't see anything alignment indicative in Gruffin's 62 or 65. Gruffin is competent enough as scum to ask those base level questions. It feels very much like an unearned town read (that appears earned if you don't double check). I just can't see how you can town read someone for the two posts Bur pointed to.
Our early banter was awful and I don't like his response to Gruffin in 81. I also think town!Bur would have reacted to having 3 votes even if they're RVS votes. I don't like completely ignoring it.
Colder take Rhand is town despite the over-explaining in 34.
There are a few advantages. First thought scour is awesome with Delve and Grim Flayer. It reduces the need to run things like bauble and tarfire. Not many decks are built to handle turn 2 Tasigur.
Second Ancestral Vision is incredibly powerful. And given the cheap average CMC of the deck it's usually pretty easy to slip it into your curve.
Third Tar Pit is by far the best creature land of the B/x decks. Unblockable is so good.
Last access to Tiny Jace or Snapcaster out of the board is crazy strong. I'm on Jace at the moment because people have been bringing in GY hate and the looter side is better than the 2/1 against leyline and RiP.
Basically vs abzan the calculus is lingering souls, path, and better sideboard options vs thought scour, ancestral and tar pit.
GJ loves to no lynch (or at least has the reputation of loving it). As for the relation to shadow, Huntzilla "caught" shadow with a reaction test based on no voting in Bare Bones before he replaced out. Caught in quotations because Shadow didn't get lynched for ages after that.
4x Mausoleum Wanderer
4x Rattlechains
4x Selfless Spirit
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Spell Queller
4x Drogskol Captain
1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
4x Serum Visions
4x Path to Exile
4x Remand
3x Cryptic Command
Lands (22)
4x Seachrome Coast
4x Flooded Strand
2x Hallowed Fountain
4x Glacial Fortress
3x Moorland Haunt
4x Island
1x Plains
Sideboard is in constant flux but the main is pretty settled. I definitely struggle against the fastest decks due to my lack of vials, but I really like how dense this deck is and how many ways it gives opponents to misplay into our different spells. I also love how low pain and consistent this mana base is. I do not like Nebelghast Herald without vial, even though triple Moorland haunt would seemingly make it welcome.
I know there are some suboptimal cards in the deck but I love passing with 3 untapped mana (with a moorland haunt) and my opponent not being sure whether to play around Remand, Queller, or Rattlechains for their turn.
Unfortunately this version is very lacking in power compared to Vial or CoCo builds and has to make up for it by being a good meta call and something your opponents are unfamiliar with. A lot of the power comes from misplays due to unfamiliarity/complexity of held mana you can present. This makes the deck an absolute blast and I highly recommend trying it out with the remands and Serums even if I know the power level is slightly lower.
Edit: I completely forgot to say but I especially love remand because it kind of fills the hole in the 2 mana slot this deck has had forever and pairs super well with Rattlechains.