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  • posted a message on [Deck] BUG Control
    Sometimes I hate cross-posting from The Source, since it can lead to having the same discussion with many of the same people in two places, but we've had some good discussion on TNN BUG Control Lists (no Delver, no Agent) there (thread link).

    I most recently ran this list:


    My fondness and emphasis on Liliana, and most of my choices, especially the use of Tarmogoyf, are in the last few pages of the thread.
    @Manroe, Daze sticks out like a sore thumb in that list. Is it really pulling its weight? (Do you play in Alton? I think I've messaged you before - I've been there a few times.)
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] Bant Aggro (Midrange)
    Cf. this Glen Jones article on 8-dork, 6-hexproof-guy Blade lists.

    The Source thread on Bant had a lot more discussion of that build whatever 4-6 months ago. When comparing with Death Blade, you're shoring up a couple downsides to the TNN plan (especially speed, with extra dorks+Daze), but become more vulnerable to the -1/-1 effects against fair creature decks (where Geist needs a good bit of setup to be really good). I'm not sure that's worth the reduced versatility of the planeswalkers plan, when the threats don't seem strong enough in a lot of fair matches.
    With lots of fair matches with lots of removal and attrition (Jund, Miracles, BUG), where you're not really fast enough to make Daze better than Thoughtseize, I think I like the slightly slower, more-stable plan of Deathblade better right now.

    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on Doomsday Piles
    Quote from Epsilonson »
    Otherwise I'm assuming you switch chromatic for sensei's and it becomes the exact pile posted earlier in the thread.

    Yea, the 1UU pile uses SDT.

    The standard ToA pile (IU, LED, GP, LED, BW) only needs UU with Probe, UU+Cantrip mana with another cantrip, 1UU with a Top. Cantrip+SDT needs 0, and double cantrip only needs mana for the 2 cantrips and R for Wish, which is just R if they're both GP (LED IU LED LED BW). So you can do it for 0 with GP/SDT playing GP, LED->UUU, flip Top-> IU, SDT, LED, LED->BBBRRR, flip Top->BW->ToA for lethal.
    In general, Tendrils piles are very flexible. Here's a good list of piles.

    While some of this may be interesting, Namida is right on: it is usually not for want of a more efficient standard pile that Doomsday doesn't win a certain game. The power of the deck comes in the resiliency to many forms of hate and flexibility of paths to victory. Cantripping and spinning top as you set up protection and acceleration usually doesn't mean mean that finding a pass-the-turn pile that can win for 2 mana is where to be. Call to the Netherworld is certainly interesting for enabling a T1 PTT pile for T2 win if you have DR+DD+non-fetch U source+U/B source (and no petal/LED, or you could already have won with lab man or TIme Spiral), but I'm not sure that scenario is that common, and you're probably without protection. And if you do add a turn to Duress or something, a T3 kill was already fine without playing Call (which is worthless), Wraith (which is quite inferior to Probe), and Lab Maniac (which is debated).
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on ramp creatures
    Quote from Lectrys

    The rare, found-in-Nic Fit-and-12-Post Primeval Titan ramps when you already have a lot of lands. Scapewish Nic Fit also sometimes uses Sakura-Tribe Elder and Wood Elves.


    Veteran Explorer is the funnest. Pairing it with Cabal Therapy gives you game against combo, pairing it with Pernicious Deed rewards wiping the majority of legacy creatures as you ramp into fatties.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on Viable RUG Deck?
    There are pros and cons to both, and there are a spectrum of possibilities from RUG (Hierarchs), RUGb (DRS w/ black for activated ability/sideboard), full BRUG (Bolt + Thoughtseize, maybe Decay maindeck), BUGr (Shardless BUG w/ splash for BBE), Shardless Bug

    I think that when you decide to play 6+ cascade guys, the best removal slots are Bolt and Fire. Bolt is nice and cheap, in contrast to your creatures. Fire further extends the value plays the deck can make. Playing both together puts your removal in 1 color instead of 3. And, your removal is never dead when you cascade into it. In the early game, this makes fetching a lot easier, and lets you play basics.

    DRS's mana requirement can't really be presumed upon, and (especially) Punishing lists are already so graveyard-dependant that DRS' drawback becomes a seriously-exploitable weak point. Moreover, an actual black splash with Thoughtseize works best when you're fetching black mana turn 1. If you check out the Waterfalls thread on the source, most people posting there had concluded in testing that - whatever the other advantages of 4-color lists - Hierarch makes for a way more dependable manabase.

    For reference, I ran this at an SCG Open in March:
    4 Misty Rainforest
    1 Scalding Tarn
    3 Polluted Delta
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Island
    1 Forest
    3 Trop
    2 Volc
    1 U Sea
    1 Taiga
    1 Bayou
    1 Badlands
    1 Tar Pit

    4 Brainstorm
    3 Visions
    3 FoW
    2 Thoughtseize

    3 Bolt
    1 Izzet Charm
    3 Decay

    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Goyf
    4 Shardless Agent
    3 BBE
    3 JTMS
    1 Jitte

    Sideboard:
    2 Venser
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    1 Force of Will
    3 Extraction
    2 E Plague
    1 Jitte
    1 Pulse
    1 Obstinate Baaloth

    (I went 5-2-1, losing to TES and RUG Delver and going to time against UW Helm.)
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on Viable RUG Deck?
    It's flagged as UGR Faeries in the TC Decks database. The thread on MTG The Source is the best place to find discussion, where it goes by Waterfalls.

    The deck typically has insane value plays but a hard time with combo (and is unable to deal with stuff outside the reach of burn). Like Shardless BUG, soft counters are a liability b/c you don't want to cascade into them. There is no substitute for the discard available in Shardless Bug.

    A sample RUG list might look like:

    4 Hierarch
    4 Goyf
    4 Shardless Agent
    3 BBE
    2 JTMS
    1 Jitte

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Visions
    4 Force
    4 Bolt
    3 Punishing Fire
    1 Sylvan Library

    22 Land (with 3-4 Grove)

    To combat combo, the board has some number of Mindbreak Trap, Flusterstorm, REB, Pyrostatic Pillar, Counterbalance, etc.

    4 Color lists use Deathrite instead of Hierarch, may run Abrupt Decay, may run maindeck/boarded discard. Like Deathblade, obvious mana stability issues, but pack a punch.

    I love playing these decks because the "fun" value of off the charts. I do not, however, ever want to run into Show and Tell...
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Bant Aggro (Midrange)
    Quote from KobeBryan
    I have the exact opposite feeling.

    One time i ran 3 GSZ because I wanted to pack an extra blue card in the deck to make it to 19.

    I ran a dryad arbor as well. I gsz on several occasions for the turn 1 arbor. It really felt lackluster to me because there were times when I really, really wanted ot save my gsz because I needed it to answer an artifact or get a knight. When I saw my gsz from drawing it, it was a savings grace. After that tournament, I feel like I either play 4 gsz for dryad arbor or if i only run 3, I would not run the dryad arbor because i need it for more utility other than mana ramping.


    Of course you have the opposite feeling - I was saying that you are way wrong. Seriously, what are the hands with 0 Hierarch, 1 GSZ that you're keeping that are so light on action that you need to sandbag the Zenith against fair decks?
    Don't save it for artifacts. If your hand has action, come blazing out the gates and destroy them. Sometimes they'll answer you and hit SFM->Equipment and by turn 6, when that's relevant (since you didn't bother accelerating) maybe you'll lose - that'll happen.
    Don't save it for Knights. Keep hands with action. If you have 0 Hierarch and 1 GSZ and think that your game plan is wait until turn 4 to try to search up a Knight, you need to mulligan.
    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on Nov. 24, 2013 SCG Providence Legacy Open Discussion
    Quote from Macius
    For note: "g" is slang for gangster. I have heard people say that its slang for "gay". I dont see how, but if you do, its not my words, im just quoting an article there.


    No: "gg" like "good game".
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Bant Aggro (Midrange)
    Quote from KobeBryan

    From my experience, I only want to get the dryad arbor if i have an abundance of GSZ. I went to a tournament once with 3 gsz and with 1 dryad arbor. I felt that because there were only 3 of them, I could not find my silver bullets matchups and that I had to save the gsz like precious metals.


    This is only really for fast combo matches where Knight->Karakas, Ooze, or Teeg is game-winning. With most keepable 1 GSZ, 0 Hierarch hands, I would play T1 GSZ against most fair decks. There are many, many match-ups where developing your board is better.

    I know we've talked about this before, but cutting Arbor really reads like limited experience with the deck. The best thing about the deck is the ability to play a consistent T1 accelerant without risking dead draws late in the game.
    Don't think of GSZ as a fatty/bullet tutor that can fetch a mana dork if you accidentally open with 2 of them. Think of it as a mana dork first, which happens to have monstrosity for when you top-deck it late in the game, and the monstrous ability shuts down a bunch of combo decks.

    If you're super light on action with 1 GSZ, 0 Hierarch and deciding not to accelerate against, say, UWxx Stoneblade, what are you keeping? You have to be really light on other action to need to hang on to that GSZ so badly. Stoneforge, Knight, Jace are obviously action worth accelerating into, Brainstorm/Ponder are good enough at finding action. 1 of any of those and I'd cast GSZ@0 and go to work - your cards are good enough that if it's worth keeping, it's usually worth accelerating.
    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on True Name Nemesis
    Quote from Mastodon
    I still don't get the hype.

    Again, not saying it's bad, but it's about on par with scavenging ooze in terms of it's impact on legacy. As always, people hype things up a lot when they're new.


    I think it's a bit better than Ooze, but, drawing a second Ooze is pretty bad - it's redundant as grave-hate or life gain and they use the same resource pool to grow. And, since the major Ooze deck was a GSZ deck, you could handily avoid this while having virtual 5 copies. The second Nemesis is great - as long as you can curve into it, they're better together. It's easy to play blue midrange/control and have one guy out against multiple dudes, where you can't race, e.g., a Goyf. The second Nemesis lets you do that - having a second one is even better aggressively, defensively, and in between.
    So Ooze went big and 1-2 made sense as a utility creatures. Nemesis is big and 3-4 make sense in more decks. Waayy more demand.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Bant Aggro (Midrange)
    Quote from dwchang

    Unrelated, but just how bad is the NO package nowadays? A part of me feels it's too "slow" with all the other combos, but I just finished my playset and am looking to play a new deck (Jund is just too bad right now). I've played Bant Blade with GSZ and singleton toolbox before, but I would imagine you cannot cram all these good things in and hence need to drop probably the SFM package to fit it.


    I like it. Stuff like Deathrite and cascade guys empower slowish, grindy, midrange-control decks which have to take discard over counters for disruption, which is the perfect setting for NO. There will always be tempo decks that prey on trying to get to 4 mana (and then counter NO), and combo decks that are too fast for it; these aren't why you play it.

    I'm not sure that Bant is the best aggro-control-combo color scheme. Swords is good, but I find any removal to be good enough at dealing with the small+value creatures most widely played today in the midrange matches - you'll probably be behind without NO and ahead with it either way. Knight isn't as good in the grinder (GBx) matches, but is usually game-endingly good against Tempo. War Monk is (imho) still way undervalued. Knight is probably the biggest advantage.
    RUG gives you a little more speed (and probably a better board) against combo.
    BUG is really interesting. I've played different versions at different times - the ability to take on DRS and go up to 5-6 solid mana dorks gives you more utility and more NO targets, and tossing in Shardless Agent (the all-time best NO sac) can be really solid. Black, meanwhile, opens up a more-aggressive disruptive strategy.
    But at any rate, I think UGx Midrange-Control-Combo NO decks are as good as they've ever been at having a low-commitment super-trump while playing a reasonably fast and disruptive clock.
    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Bant Aggro (Midrange)
    Quote from Go.dec
    I'm using something like Anwei's list, but with 3 V Clique, Geist, and Tarmo, as I really want the extra disruption.


    Not my list - just something that showed up on TC Decks.

    Here's another (5th / 63):



    Notes:
    1. When Tempo Bant comes up, the repeated tension that I comment on is that Bant colors trade Bolt for StP, and that makes Delver/Mongoose worse because you can't get a few swings in then burn them out. A Geist Kamikazee (especially with Stifle) gives you a little better late game, but this is the Bant Tension.
    2. But, with more combo and punishing fire around, this might not be a bad time for this sort of list - a cheap/resilient creature base does better-than-normal against other small guys.
    3. Speaking of small guys, 6 md removal + snapcaster obviously have those lists (Shardless, Deathblade, Jund) in mind, and turn Geist/Goose back on.
    4. Disruption/Mana is pretty basic but strong against combo.
    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Bant Aggro (Midrange)
    I linked to the TC decks posting above (4/23) with the board he used - 3 path, 3 pierce, 2 verdict, 2 t. crypt, 2 canonist, 2 extraction, 1 k grip.

    I'm not in a position, time-wise, to be playing or testing at the moment. My initial thoughts are that if I wanted to build a Hierarch/Goyf/SFM/Geist Bant deck, I might start with something closer to the feel of the Patriot-Blade decks. Specifically, I would cut Jace, SCM, ~3 lands, and probably a guy (SFM or Clique) for Stifle and another 1-2 Ponder, moving some of those basics and fetches for the other wastes.
    Playing something similarly mid-rangey, I agree that 8-9 fetches seems better and I'd up the blue dual count instead (and maybe get a 3rd waste). 21 Lands is probably better too. Also not sure about Snapcaster, in this scenario.
    For either list, I'd have to kick Spell Snare around some. I'm always split on that card, and it might be iffy in this deck - makes your Hierarchs awkward on the draw and your 2-drops awkward on the play. But, it isn't as soft as spell pierce, which is big when you aren't pushing Knight/Waste so hard. For the nimbler Stifle list, Daze is the obvious sub.

    In any case, get Swan Song in the board.
    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Bant Aggro (Midrange)
    So, I had previously written off Patriot-Blade lists because of tension between the strategic strengths of Delver and Stoneforge - it looks like two almost-streamlined strategies smooshed into one deck. They have done well, and folks that have played this archetype have insisted that it succeeds precisely on this point - it can switch between a tempo game or grindy game better than a purer incarnation of either deck. While not totally convincing (you can be Rock and Scissors if you draw right), it makes me more interested in decks like this:



    There are some things I would change, but it would be interesting to run that blend of potentially-at-odds guys all together.
    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Theros in Legacy
    Quote from Vampiric_Tutor
    Swan Song won't see play in Legacy, guys.
    There's a million cards out there that do things better in this particular format.
    Daze, Force of Will... Even it's closest resemblance, Spell Pierce.


    The closest resemblance is Envelop, which is one of my very favorite sideboard cards. In Daze-Spell Pierce land, when U(x) SnT decks are generally packing Sol Lands and can wait a turn and pay for soft counters, Envelop is the boss of countering their most important spells. It is not a good general-purpose counter for grinding out long games; it's the counter you want when you have to board in disruption to stop their combo.

    For Midrange-Control Uxx decks, with something like 3-8 counters main, this is almost always an important function out of the board, as a mediocre clock means you need more solid forms of disruption and Spell Pierce isn't great. Pyroblast is good if you're on red, but doesn't hit Elves, Storm, Sneak Attack, or Reanimator variants.

    Swan Song fills in many gaps of Envelop - Sneak Attack, Dream Halls, and Ad Nauseum - with minimal drawback. You're not going to die to their board (or those 8 turns should've been enough to get combo'd off anyway), and it usually won't slow your clock too badly. It still doesn't hit MUD, which is a bummer, or Walkers, which would be nice but really isn't the function of that slot.

    In my view, it replaces Envelop as the best pure-sideboard counter in today's Legacy, and I'm stoked for the access to a more-versatile hard counter for the primary combo decks of the format.
    Posted in: Legacy Archives
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