Something we can agree about. But, like I have said numerous times ITS GOING TO TAKE TIME! Anyone that was around when Legacy was an upstart format will understand that. Its going to take the PTQ season to really understand what works and doesnt on a larger scale. (I am almost certain that no matter what happens some will be unhappy)
I was around when Legacy was young and I think the banning policy was much more reasonable. Also, I woudln't mind a format similar to Legacy in terms of speed and diversity (but with dual lands that actually could be reprinted in the future). They should take Legacy a model to follow, it's just so good (except a few details, like too much blue, but that has become less of an issue in the last months).
I like Iona + Painter's Servant because they can't kill it with a something like a Path to Exile. It has the disadventage that if you have an unfavorable board postition you might still lose, but the invulnerability is worth it IMO.
-> This was banned because it made games take too long. Sword of the Meek-> This is just as good asDark Depths, maybe even better becauseAcademy Ruins. If something likeCloudpostis banned this has to be banned too. Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle-> With Dark Depths, Hyergenesis, Dredge, Elves and Thopter Foundry banned I'm afraid this might be too good. Not sure though.
Other than that I think that's a pretty reasonable banned list.
Barely anyone played it, that's why it didn't have more spots. The decks in the top 8 don't immediately decide what the best/strongest decks in a format are. Widely played decks have much greater chances of showing up because there's randomness in this game. That infect deck was a fairly powerful combo.
Yes that's right, but they still overreacted. Maybe if more players had played the deck it would have taken more spots in the top 8, so what? That doesn't mean it's overpowered, maybe players would have hated it out, maybe not, but they didn't give it a chance.
the argument was that old extedned was a good measuring stick for the power of cards in modern because it is almost the same format with a different ban list.
No one ever complained about goyf, zoo, nactl, or storm. Heck storm wasn't even considered tier 3 in extended. Zoo had to play in a format where it wasn't at least 50/50 with every deck. Combo decks existed that were powerful, but not unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination. Control could play two colors if they wanted to because you didn't have to play UBW to have good reliable instant speed card draw. The format had a few issues, but 2-3 bans and it would have been kinda like legacy. Full of good decks that span every genre of magic where skilled players and great deck builders could thrive.
I have the same line of thinking. Before DDT, old extended had a far better metagame than modern has today and with a much smaller banned list (and they could've easily unbanned Aether Vial). With a few small changes to the banned list (DDT and Hypergenesis maybe) it would have been an excellent format.
...and I say they wanted something DIFFERENT then old extended or Legacy so they are removing cards that would give modern that feel. People want to play the same decks they played in old extended with a different cardpool and different interactions.
If they wanted a different format they should have made the cut in another edition, instead of making exactly the same cut old extended had and doing stupid bannings like ponder.
This statement is whats wrong with the thinking of Modern deckbuilders. They have been made to think only certain cards are playable. They stop even looking at cards outside their comfort zone and then say there are only a few playables.
About the jank debate, it's pretty clear from tournament results that only a relatively small portion of the card pool can be truly competitive. And banning a few of those cards won't do a lot because players will just replace them with the next best option. An exception to this would be a really broken card that makes the format unhealthy, but to expect a format in wich thousands of cards are competitive is unrealistic.
For me the most important thing right now about this format is to not let draw-go be good enough to be tier1. That type of strategy is outdated and should not see play again in any format. People enjoy legacy so much because pure control doesn't exist there, blue control plays aggrocontrol with fows and dazes and such. Vision would only help those kind of decks, just playing counters and removal spells on their opponent's turns and nothing on theirs until they have 10 lands and cast a win condition, on turn 15 or so, making matches take forever. That's the cancer of magic.
But I feel some people have jumped the modern bandwagon just to play draw-go since it doesn't exist in any other format.
I think I don't agree with you on this one. A format is more appealing (at least for me) when more different strategies are viable, including draw-go and even fast combo, given that they aren't a dominant force in the meta.
An excelent example of this is Legacy's metagame. You can play true control decks like Landstill (maybe it's not draw-go, but it still is a hardcore control deck) a lot of different (and competitive) combo decks like ANT or Reanimator, all-in aggro decks like Zoo or Affinity, aggro-control decks like Bant, midrange aggro like Maverick, tribal decks like Merfolk or Goblins, and a bunch of other strategies (Pox, Enchantress, etc.). While some of these strategies can be considered unfun by some players, sometimes even the majority of players, they are still are a great asset to the metagame because they provide diversity. Besides, because the metagame is so diverse, you won't have to face any deck many times, and on the other side you can still play your pet Pox deck even if some players hate it with all their souls. In my opinion that is the fundamental reason Legacy is so popular and probably the best example we have of a fun metagame, diversity. And precisely that's what modern lacks. Maybe there are less people who hate midrange and aggro decks than people who hate combo and control, but a metagame composed of only aggro and midrange decks still sucks because it lacks diversity. I don't care if I can play 10 different types of midrange decks if I can't play a decent number of different combo and control decks and have a decent shot of winning something. I'm afraid that's the direction modern has been moving to, a meta composed of all kind of different decks on the surface, but not radically different (like we have in Legacy).
Don't get me wrong, I actually think aggro-control decks are the most fun decks to play. But if I'm playing in a tournament, I would rather face all kinds of different strategies, even if I hate some of them, than face just a bunch of "different" aggro-control decks that I don't hate.
The same principle applies to all the other strategies. A meta composed of all kinds of different aggro decks would still suck and so on...
I mean this is an eternal format! You would expect you can play a bunch of different approaches to the game, but that's not the case. And why is that? Because Wizards decided to ban all the "unfun" and possibly competitive decks, but they don't realize that even if a minority of people find a deck fun, that deck still deserves to exist only for them, given that it doesn't become a big portion of the metagame. Do you imagine how would Legacy look like if they adopted the same policy? (hint: it would suck).
aggro vs control control only has to have removal for their creatures, the one with more answers wins, there's no more secrets, vision gives card advantage. If the control player has 1 removal or damnation/wrath for all aggro's creatures then some win cons and card advantage gg.
Yes there are other forms of card adventage, but it would be nice to have good cards that actually draw cards
what? Modern is more about pure power level and speed. Things like card advantage, tight play, and synergy have taken the back seat.
Look at control decks even. They run a curve that rivals aggro decks because things that cost 3 or more mana are mostly too expensive.
IMO card adventage has taken a secondary rol mostly because draw spells suck in modern. The only really good draw spell was Ancestral Vision and that's another reason unbanning it would be good.
What about infect shoal? How would modern control beat that?
Infect Shoal was never a problem, only 1 deck made top 8 and that's not very good considering combo decks should do better in their debut, as no one is prepared for them. Combo elves took 6/8 slots of the top 8 in its debut in old extended, and then players learned how to hate it and it was kept under control, no bannings needed. I don't get why Wizards has been so agressive with the bannings, its like "OMG a combo deck made top 8, we shall ban it to oblivion!".
Spreading out the CMCs is generally advisable if you're running a dedicated Birthing Pod deck since you can get more value out of it by fetching higher CMC cards. I'm not sure that's really necessary for this deck though since it tries to win with a specific combination of creatures, but it could theoretically give the deck more of a plan B.
As for the combo, as I understand it it basically works like this.
Prerequisites: Sacrifice engine on the field, Body Double in your graveyard.
1. Play Reveillark. Either pay the evoke or sacrifice it when it hits play.
2. Reveillark's leaves-the-field ability triggers. Target Body Double and some other creature with 2 or less power, preferably one with a useful ETB/LTB effect.
3. Make Body Double a copy of Reveillark. Sacrifice the other creature if you're recurring another one.
4. Sacrifice Body Double. Its Reveillark ability triggers; target the Body Double and optionally another creature. Repeat from step 3.
Result: Infinite recursion of the extra creature's ETB/LTB effect and infinite of whatever your sac engine gets you.
I had a deck built around a similar combo once (used Karmic Guide recurring Reveillark directly instead of Body Double copying it, but the process is similar.)
^ This haha, thx.
About the CMC costs, you get more value of birthing pod because sometimes you'll have a 4cmc creature and Birthing Pod on the battlefield, and if you don't have a 5 cmc creature in your deck you lose the opportunity of doing something awesome. The same could be said with higher cmc creatures, but most of the chains I've seen end up in cmc 6 or 7.
Altar of Dementia is a little better than Blasting Station, or you could run a mix. There aren't that many older cards that suit this deck well because you want to abuse persist and -1/-1 counters in general.
If you wan't to go the Birthing Pod route, you should diversify a little more your mana curve. You need at least a couple of 5 drops and probably a 6 drop to get the full use of it. Maybe you could include the Reveillark + Body Double combo. Other useful silver bullets include Eternal Witness, Phyrexian Metamorph, Shriekmaw and Sun Titan. You might want to check out the primer about Melira-Pod in the modern forum. This is a great deck for casual because you can run almost any creature you want as a 1-of
I dont have any Goyfs and they are expensive as ****.
Lol I notice that, but you have Vengevine, that should be enough in the big beaters department IMO, considering you're running 4 Fauna Shaman and 3/4 Intuition.
I wouldn't add brainstorms unless you want to run more fetchlands, two isn't gonna cut it. Daze fits your deck playstile (tempo) so I wouldn't replace that. Maybe:
Edit: Ahh I didn't see your new list, it seems you made similar changes :P. To be honest I don't like Arrogant Wurm or Roar of the Wurm very much, they used to be played in the first versions of Madness, but today they pale in comparison to Tarmogoyf or Vengevine + Intuition. Also, you shouldn't remove all the Aquamoebas, remember that Circular Logic needs instant speed discard to be really useful, and 4 Wild Mongrels aren't enough. I'd do:
Looks like this is one of those threads where we're going to disagree on what a Legend should be.
The original Nicol Bolas was very flavorful, IMO. But as a card (8 mana for a 7/7 flier that had an ability that, by the time you could cast him was pretty worthless) he was pretty so-so.
Do I feel he's deserving of being a legend?
Well, yes and no. You have to understand that at the time, creatures sucked. At least in comparison to the power creep we have today. So in comparison to other creatures of the time, he wasn't so bad. Still, I'm on the fence about him.
Point is, I feel a legendary creature SHOULD be powerful. I mean for crying out loud...he's a legend.
Are you going to take Karn and stick him on a 3/3 vanilla body even for 2 mana? No, of course not. He better do something pretty amazing.
Rofellos? Now THAT is a legend. I'd like to be able to stick that sucker into a Wolf Run deck. Heck, I could actually get 5 into the deck just playing one with 4 GSZ. Hell, why not just make it 8?
There are too many "meh" legends to name them all there.
What's a good one?
I know it when I see it.
That's not necessarily true. There are characters in the storyline that aren't powerful at all, like Squee, Goblin Nabob. Legendary cards should have the power they are supposed to have in the story. Of course Karn shouln't be a weak card, not because he is a Legend, but because he is one of the most powerful planeswalkers in the story and in the same way Squee shouldn't be a strong card since he isn't a powerful character in the story.
I was around when Legacy was young and I think the banning policy was much more reasonable. Also, I woudln't mind a format similar to Legacy in terms of speed and diversity (but with dual lands that actually could be reprinted in the future). They should take Legacy a model to follow, it's just so good (except a few details, like too much blue, but that has become less of an issue in the last months).
What do you mean?
It looks like I was talking about Legacy, but the point I was trying to make was about Modern. Thanks for the reminder though.
Please no lol, I'd rather see almost any other combo get unbanned before Hypergenesis...
Other than that I think that's a pretty reasonable banned list.
Yes that's right, but they still overreacted. Maybe if more players had played the deck it would have taken more spots in the top 8, so what? That doesn't mean it's overpowered, maybe players would have hated it out, maybe not, but they didn't give it a chance.
I have the same line of thinking. Before DDT, old extended had a far better metagame than modern has today and with a much smaller banned list (and they could've easily unbanned Aether Vial). With a few small changes to the banned list (DDT and Hypergenesis maybe) it would have been an excellent format.
If they wanted a different format they should have made the cut in another edition, instead of making exactly the same cut old extended had and doing stupid bannings like ponder.
About the jank debate, it's pretty clear from tournament results that only a relatively small portion of the card pool can be truly competitive. And banning a few of those cards won't do a lot because players will just replace them with the next best option. An exception to this would be a really broken card that makes the format unhealthy, but to expect a format in wich thousands of cards are competitive is unrealistic.
I think I don't agree with you on this one. A format is more appealing (at least for me) when more different strategies are viable, including draw-go and even fast combo, given that they aren't a dominant force in the meta.
An excelent example of this is Legacy's metagame. You can play true control decks like Landstill (maybe it's not draw-go, but it still is a hardcore control deck) a lot of different (and competitive) combo decks like ANT or Reanimator, all-in aggro decks like Zoo or Affinity, aggro-control decks like Bant, midrange aggro like Maverick, tribal decks like Merfolk or Goblins, and a bunch of other strategies (Pox, Enchantress, etc.). While some of these strategies can be considered unfun by some players, sometimes even the majority of players, they are still are a great asset to the metagame because they provide diversity. Besides, because the metagame is so diverse, you won't have to face any deck many times, and on the other side you can still play your pet Pox deck even if some players hate it with all their souls. In my opinion that is the fundamental reason Legacy is so popular and probably the best example we have of a fun metagame, diversity. And precisely that's what modern lacks. Maybe there are less people who hate midrange and aggro decks than people who hate combo and control, but a metagame composed of only aggro and midrange decks still sucks because it lacks diversity. I don't care if I can play 10 different types of midrange decks if I can't play a decent number of different combo and control decks and have a decent shot of winning something. I'm afraid that's the direction modern has been moving to, a meta composed of all kind of different decks on the surface, but not radically different (like we have in Legacy).
Don't get me wrong, I actually think aggro-control decks are the most fun decks to play. But if I'm playing in a tournament, I would rather face all kinds of different strategies, even if I hate some of them, than face just a bunch of "different" aggro-control decks that I don't hate.
The same principle applies to all the other strategies. A meta composed of all kinds of different aggro decks would still suck and so on...
I mean this is an eternal format! You would expect you can play a bunch of different approaches to the game, but that's not the case. And why is that? Because Wizards decided to ban all the "unfun" and possibly competitive decks, but they don't realize that even if a minority of people find a deck fun, that deck still deserves to exist only for them, given that it doesn't become a big portion of the metagame. Do you imagine how would Legacy look like if they adopted the same policy? (hint: it would suck).
Yes there are other forms of card adventage, but it would be nice to have good cards that actually draw cards
I miss FoF
IMO card adventage has taken a secondary rol mostly because draw spells suck in modern. The only really good draw spell was Ancestral Vision and that's another reason unbanning it would be good.
Infect Shoal was never a problem, only 1 deck made top 8 and that's not very good considering combo decks should do better in their debut, as no one is prepared for them. Combo elves took 6/8 slots of the top 8 in its debut in old extended, and then players learned how to hate it and it was kept under control, no bannings needed. I don't get why Wizards has been so agressive with the bannings, its like "OMG a combo deck made top 8, we shall ban it to oblivion!".
^ This haha, thx.
About the CMC costs, you get more value of birthing pod because sometimes you'll have a 4cmc creature and Birthing Pod on the battlefield, and if you don't have a 5 cmc creature in your deck you lose the opportunity of doing something awesome. The same could be said with higher cmc creatures, but most of the chains I've seen end up in cmc 6 or 7.
If you wan't to go the Birthing Pod route, you should diversify a little more your mana curve. You need at least a couple of 5 drops and probably a 6 drop to get the full use of it. Maybe you could include the Reveillark + Body Double combo. Other useful silver bullets include Eternal Witness, Phyrexian Metamorph, Shriekmaw and Sun Titan. You might want to check out the primer about Melira-Pod in the modern forum. This is a great deck for casual because you can run almost any creature you want as a 1-of
Lol I notice that, but you have Vengevine, that should be enough in the big beaters department IMO, considering you're running 4 Fauna Shaman and 3/4 Intuition.
-1 Island, -1 Forest => +2 Misty Rainforest (they also help with Circular Logic)
-1 Aquamoeba => +1 Wild Mongrel (is better as someone already pointed out)
-3 Careful Study -1 Deep Analysis => +4 Brainstorm
I like your deck the way it is though.
Edit: Ahh I didn't see your new list, it seems you made similar changes :P. To be honest I don't like Arrogant Wurm or Roar of the Wurm very much, they used to be played in the first versions of Madness, but today they pale in comparison to Tarmogoyf or Vengevine + Intuition. Also, you shouldn't remove all the Aquamoebas, remember that Circular Logic needs instant speed discard to be really useful, and 4 Wild Mongrels aren't enough. I'd do:
-2 Arrogant Wurm => +2 Aquamoeba
That's not necessarily true. There are characters in the storyline that aren't powerful at all, like Squee, Goblin Nabob. Legendary cards should have the power they are supposed to have in the story. Of course Karn shouln't be a weak card, not because he is a Legend, but because he is one of the most powerful planeswalkers in the story and in the same way Squee shouldn't be a strong card since he isn't a powerful character in the story.