You offset it simply, make counter/disruption/etc as aggressively costed as you make creatures. If you look back for example at Rav/Time Spiral block Gruuls had turn 1 1/1 turn 2 3/3 turn 3 4/1 haste tampler with Incinerate and Char burn to back up, not even mentioning Goyf. While not as aggressive as now it was still very aggressive and deadly and yet control, could handle it. Why?
Condemn
Remand
Rune Snag
Last Gasp
Tendrils of Corruption+Urborg
Damnation
Wrath of God
Faith's Fetters
Venser the Shapers Savant
And these are just removal we also had...
Mystical Teachings
Think Twice
Telling Time
Ancestral Visions
Careful Consideration
Compulsive Research
For card draw and deck filtering and for win cons we had...
We also had charge lands which would enable us to continue to build our mana base without having to constantly commit land from our hand.
Control actually had what it needed to survive. It had cost effective permission/removal and the removal also doubled by providing a bit of life padding with Tendrils and Faith's Fetters having life gain side effects. The card draw/deck filtering was actually good. You had cards like Think Twice/Teaching that got you ahead in increments while cards like Ancestral Visions could let you refill after the early game push aggro would make as well as cards like Compulsive Research and Careful Consideration would give you a +1 with respectable card selection.
Now card selection gets you no card advantage, Think Twice is still around but we have nothing to actually let you refill effectively save extremely late game options in Blue Sun. Now I am not asking for those cards to come back, it would get boring playing the same control deck over and over again, but right now control is seriouslly lacking in refill options, in win cons that actually fit the control formula, and no the titans don't, and a number of the answers are pretty weak, especially if you are in white where you don't have any instant removal that doesn't require metal craft. Black gets away with Tribute to Hunger.
There are a few decent cards, Timely Reinforcements/day/etc but to think that control has what it needs to be successful is rather silly.
IMO that was the best Standard format ever. We had equally competitive Aggro, Combo and Control decks. You could choose all kinds of strategies and colors and there was a cool deck for you, from Dragonstorm to Martyr-Proc. Good old times :')
No it was still tier 1, it was one of the few Non-Mental Misstep decks to win big tournaments, and if you look at the Data on the Council, it was consistently in the top 5, and was even the top deck in June. Simply put, MM is actually not very good against Zoo. And if you look now, Zoo hasn't been doing pretty stellar although it has sort of started to bounce back this month.
You're right, my bad. I had the wrong idea that Zoo was pushed out of the format.
As to Jace, its been talked about the casting cost should have been UUUU or 1UUU but people still feel he would be broken. Its also said even at 5 or 6 mana he would be broken. When you can do all that to a card and people (inculding R&D) feel the card just shouldnt have been printed... that says alot!!
Lol there's no way in the world Jace would've been broken at 6 mana and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been broken at 5 in any format larger than Standard either.
You are right about Goyf not being broken, but lets not forget Goyf dominated Legacy for a much longer time than Jace (has Jace even Dominated Legacy?).
In the end, is hard to compare 2 cards that are so different. The only real indicator we have is the impact they had in the different formats. We have the evidence that Jace was probably too good for Standard, but ok for Legacy. Modern beeing in between doesn't make things any easier, but since it's closer to Legacy, I'd say Jace at least deserves a chance.
Edit: Just want to point out that efficiency isn't independent with brokenness. Same example as before: 1 generic mana, 20/20, no abilities. It's broken cos' is dam too efficient. Obviously Goyf isn't that bad, but is probably in the line of what should be considered too efficient.
I hope people realize that Zoo actually did better when Misstep was legal than it did before and is doing afterwords. Long story short, Misstep is actually pretty bad against Zoo because they can just overload on 1 drops since they will eventually stick one. Not to mention if Blue gets better Zoo gets even better since Zoo crushes Blue decks.
Zoo wasn't better when MM was legal, actually it was worse. For the first time in a long time Zoo stopped being tier 1 (we are talking about Legacy right?). Although the main reason was probably Batterskull.
On the other hand, I agree MM isn't that great against Zoo, but it isn't terrible either.
I agree that Mental Misstep warped the Legacy metagame and made blue a dominant force (even more). But that isn't necesarly true for other formats, in particular Modern.
The power MM had in Legacy resides in the speed of the format, and the importance of 1-drops. In Legacy it's extremly important to have a way to deal with powerful 1st turn plays like: Goblin Lackey, Aether Vial, Sensei's Diving Top, Entomb, Dark Ritual (into God knows what), etc.
That isn't the case for modern, at least not that much. That's right, we also have Aether Vial, but it isn't as good in Modern as it is in Legacy so it isn't something to worry about. We also have Wild Nacatl & friends, but hey! wouldn't be nice to have something to deal with those pesky little critters? Of course MM also hits utility cards like Thoughtseize or Path to Exile, but while is nice to have a reliable answer to those cards, it isn't vital as it is in Legacy to be able to deal with lets say... a turn 1 Goblin Lackey.
I think we all agree MM isn't even good in Standard, and that's because Standard is much slower and lighter in 1-drops than Legacy. Modern is somewhere in between, so IMO is not clear that MM is overpowered in Modern.
LOL.. Goyf a vinalla creatue you consider overpowering (efficient, yes) to probably THE most broken planeswalker printed. All other planeswalkers strive to be half as good as Jace 2.0. Both cards admitted mistakes by R&D but each for different reasons. Goyf they admit should cost 1 mana more, Jace they admit shouldnt have been printed. Pretty clear which is broken and which isnt.
I hate when people bring the argument "X is only a vanilla creature so is not that broken", that doesn't make sense at all. Would you consider a 20/20 for 1 generic mana to be broken? It's only a vanilla creature after all.
I think is debatable if Goyf is comparable to Jace in terms of power level. After all, if jace costed 50% more mana (the equivalent to Goyf costing 3) it wouldn't be broken either, probably it wouldn't even be playable. Also, both are seing about the same amount of play in legacy right now.
However, that wasn't the point I was trying to make in my previous post...
Edit: Also, Goyf was the most dominant creature since Psychatog, until Stoneforge + Batterskull came to play I guess.
Modern might be able to handle Jace TMS. Zoo might be able to kill him. Combo might be able to ignore him. Control might be able to remove him.
But as someone who has played with Jace TMS in Legacy, I can definitely see how drawing nothing but lands for the rest of the game, then getting your entire library exiled and your subpar hand (if you had anything playable in it, why didn't you play it before JTMS used his ultimate?) shuffled into your library is very, very un-fun to play through. Good players inevitably continuously use his +2 once they think the coast is clear, and fatesealing their opponents once they've countered enough spells to see what deck their opponents are playing is what they mainly use his +2 for.
As seen with Affinity Standard, Caw-Blade Standard, and Combo Winter, there is a very fine line between un-fun and ban-worthy, and that line is easily blurred. People might say they're not here to have fun, they're here to win. But, inevitably, the Standard formats with the most overpowered cards and the most bans end up being the least fun ones of all.
IMO unfun cards shouldn't be banned unless they are format warping and extensively played. I understand why some people find Jace unfun (although being the one who controls him can be quite fun lol), but the same thing could be said about a lot of other cards, for example Pox (the whole Pox deck can be a pain to play against really), does that mean those cards should be banned? of course not, if some people play them that's because they like to, being because they find them fun to play with or any other reason, and that should count for something. Jace is just as unfun in Legacy as it would be in Modern and that's no reason to ban it, that's because Legacy can handle it just fine (although it's still very competitive), and you seem to agree that this would be the case for Modern too.
Shuhei Nakamura did really good in worlds (6-0) with a similar deck. It's a 4c Gifts control deck, but it goes a little lighter in blue since Cryptic Command is so mana intensive and other (more) important spells are too (Liliana of the Veil, Kitchen Finks, etc.). This is the decklist:
I honestly cannot believe a Disciple of the Vault ban and artifact land unban would kill Affinity. Affinity does well in Modern with NEITHER of these cards. It does well in Legacy with ZERO Disciples.
This is what I'd run in Legacy, and it's 100% Modern-legal except for the artifact lands:
This is pretty dang similar to the default builds in the OP of the Legacy Affinity thread.
Cranial Plating is unreal. You can never turn Metalcraft off. Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is a 4-mana card that says, "At the beginning of your next main phase, you win the game." All this happens if you unban the artifact lands.
But affinity haven't been tier 1 in Legacy, not even after SOM. Although I agree it would probably be too powerful for Modern right now, I wasn't sure when the artifact lands were first banned, but it's pretty obvious now considering how good it is even without them.
I believe that the majority of players do not have fun playing against Jace.
Actually I found Jace TMS a very cool and fun card, it's a little overpowered, but nothing we haven't seen before (Tarmogoyf anyone?) and definitely nothing Modern can't handle. Just my 2 cents...
For anyone who doesn't know it, I'm talking about Revoke Existence.
I came across this card a few days ago and found it quite impressive at first sight. An improved disenchant? I thought, then realized it was a sorcery. But it seems it could be good anyway, as it allows to remove troublesome artifacts against decks that usually play Academy Ruins, like Thopter Foundry.
You could make a lot of decks with that cards, its up to your preference really. I'd personally buy a set of Tarmogoyfs and build a RUG Tempo deck with Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, etc., but that's just me.
Because you have way too many conditional counterspells. I tried using both in a teachings list before MM got banned from the format. It was really ugly and often times I lost just because I drew the wrong/ too many conditional counterspells. Using something like mana leak is just better. So using one main deck and the other sideboard is your best option.
Ah that seems reasonable. I sometimes used a mix of 6 between both (in Ux tempo decks), like 4 MM and 2 Spell Snare or 3-3. It worked fine for me, but didn't play test a lot really.
it does hinge on your starting hand if your playing combo/control. Both affinity and zoo can have starts that almost cannot be beat. MM would give both combo/control something to do against 1 drop.decs. Hell I wouldn't even main deck MM, but throw 2-4 in my sideboard as it doesn't play well with spell snare, negate or remand.
Just out of curiosity... why doesn't MM play well with Spell Snare?
IMO that was the best Standard format ever. We had equally competitive Aggro, Combo and Control decks. You could choose all kinds of strategies and colors and there was a cool deck for you, from Dragonstorm to Martyr-Proc. Good old times :')
You're right, my bad. I had the wrong idea that Zoo was pushed out of the format.
Lol there's no way in the world Jace would've been broken at 6 mana and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been broken at 5 in any format larger than Standard either.
You are right about Goyf not being broken, but lets not forget Goyf dominated Legacy for a much longer time than Jace (has Jace even Dominated Legacy?).
In the end, is hard to compare 2 cards that are so different. The only real indicator we have is the impact they had in the different formats. We have the evidence that Jace was probably too good for Standard, but ok for Legacy. Modern beeing in between doesn't make things any easier, but since it's closer to Legacy, I'd say Jace at least deserves a chance.
Edit: Just want to point out that efficiency isn't independent with brokenness. Same example as before: 1 generic mana, 20/20, no abilities. It's broken cos' is dam too efficient. Obviously Goyf isn't that bad, but is probably in the line of what should be considered too efficient.
Zoo wasn't better when MM was legal, actually it was worse. For the first time in a long time Zoo stopped being tier 1 (we are talking about Legacy right?). Although the main reason was probably Batterskull.
On the other hand, I agree MM isn't that great against Zoo, but it isn't terrible either.
The power MM had in Legacy resides in the speed of the format, and the importance of 1-drops. In Legacy it's extremly important to have a way to deal with powerful 1st turn plays like: Goblin Lackey, Aether Vial, Sensei's Diving Top, Entomb, Dark Ritual (into God knows what), etc.
That isn't the case for modern, at least not that much. That's right, we also have Aether Vial, but it isn't as good in Modern as it is in Legacy so it isn't something to worry about. We also have Wild Nacatl & friends, but hey! wouldn't be nice to have something to deal with those pesky little critters? Of course MM also hits utility cards like Thoughtseize or Path to Exile, but while is nice to have a reliable answer to those cards, it isn't vital as it is in Legacy to be able to deal with lets say... a turn 1 Goblin Lackey.
I think we all agree MM isn't even good in Standard, and that's because Standard is much slower and lighter in 1-drops than Legacy. Modern is somewhere in between, so IMO is not clear that MM is overpowered in Modern.
I hate when people bring the argument "X is only a vanilla creature so is not that broken", that doesn't make sense at all. Would you consider a 20/20 for 1 generic mana to be broken? It's only a vanilla creature after all.
I think is debatable if Goyf is comparable to Jace in terms of power level. After all, if jace costed 50% more mana (the equivalent to Goyf costing 3) it wouldn't be broken either, probably it wouldn't even be playable. Also, both are seing about the same amount of play in legacy right now.
However, that wasn't the point I was trying to make in my previous post...
Edit: Also, Goyf was the most dominant creature since Psychatog, until Stoneforge + Batterskull came to play I guess.
IMO unfun cards shouldn't be banned unless they are format warping and extensively played. I understand why some people find Jace unfun (although being the one who controls him can be quite fun lol), but the same thing could be said about a lot of other cards, for example Pox (the whole Pox deck can be a pain to play against really), does that mean those cards should be banned? of course not, if some people play them that's because they like to, being because they find them fun to play with or any other reason, and that should count for something. Jace is just as unfun in Legacy as it would be in Modern and that's no reason to ban it, that's because Legacy can handle it just fine (although it's still very competitive), and you seem to agree that this would be the case for Modern too.
1 Blood Crypt
1 Breeding Pool
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Forest
2 Graven Cairns
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Twilight Mire
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
Creatures:
2 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 All Suns' Dawn
1 Consuming Vapors
2 Damnation
1 Doom Blade
1 Duress
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Go for the Throat
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Punishing Fire
1 Raven's Crime
1 Rude Awakening
1 Smother
2 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Combust
1 Extirpate
1 Obstinate Baloth
2 Seal of Primordium
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Thoughtseize
But affinity haven't been tier 1 in Legacy, not even after SOM. Although I agree it would probably be too powerful for Modern right now, I wasn't sure when the artifact lands were first banned, but it's pretty obvious now considering how good it is even without them.
Actually I found Jace TMS a very cool and fun card, it's a little overpowered, but nothing we haven't seen before (Tarmogoyf anyone?) and definitely nothing Modern can't handle. Just my 2 cents...
I came across this card a few days ago and found it quite impressive at first sight. An improved disenchant? I thought, then realized it was a sorcery. But it seems it could be good anyway, as it allows to remove troublesome artifacts against decks that usually play Academy Ruins, like Thopter Foundry.
Ah that seems reasonable. I sometimes used a mix of 6 between both (in Ux tempo decks), like 4 MM and 2 Spell Snare or 3-3. It worked fine for me, but didn't play test a lot really.
Just out of curiosity... why doesn't MM play well with Spell Snare?
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