I just can't get why people see brokeness in cards that have never been broken in any large format before. Think about Bitterblossom, Ancestral Vision and Chrome Mox, they were legal in extended for a long long time and, even when extended became just 4 blocks, they didn't break the format, ever. UB Faeries, wich played Bitterlossom AND Ancestral Vision, wasn't even a tier 1 deck in old extended and probably wouldn't be in Modern either, having terrible matchups against Zoo and anything that runs Punishing Fire. And even if for some strange reason it became a tier 1 deck there's no chance it would rule the format the way it ruled Standard, Modern is still much more powerful than Standard, despite the giant banned list and everything.
Okay, that argument seems a bit more reasonable. The difference is not that they design cards differently now than they used to (which is true) but, basically, that Legacy includes cards from sets that were poorly designed (also true). But that's not really a structurally sound argument either, because those cards that were from earlier, poorly-designed sets ARE a major part of Legacy. ABU duals are not on the Legacy ban list, but they're still miles ahead of the power level of anything in Modern; they are from the same poorly-designed sets that gave us the Power Nine (your example). And yet they're not banned. If we're going to rule out cards just because they're from earlier sets that were punctuated with what we, from our modern perspective, would call "design mistakes," then we either have to rule out all those cards (like the original dual lands, as I said before), or else concede that we're no longer comparing Modern to Legacy any more.
Ultimately, if you try to say "cards X-Y can be discounted because they were [mistakes/poor design/from early sets/etc]," then you're no longer comparing to Legacy. You're comparing Modern to Format-That-Resembles-Legacy-Somewhat. Part of what makes Legacy what it is are those really old, really powerful cards. Some are banned, some are not. You can't discount them, because then it's not Legacy.
The other thing is that your same argument could be made for the Mirrodin artifact lands. Yes, they were design mistakes that were the first of their kind (who would have known how powerful an artifact land would be? (mirrodin) Who would have known how broken a Mox would be? (alpha)). However, they existed within a larger set of which the rest is legal in Modern. You can't just discount cards that you want to.
Legacy and Modern have roughly proportional ban lists for the size of their card pools. Modern is a growing format that is growing shakily but is very quickly becoming balanced and fun. Both of these things are true. Could some things come off the ban list? Sure. Will they? I don't know, but if WotC's attitude towards Legacy is any indication, I'd expect them to start picking cards off over the next several years, assuming no major catastrophes appear again (lolstoneforge).
I was going to reply, and then realized this is one of those discutions that could go on and on and we aren't going to get anywhere because we have already set our minds haha.
I really hope they fix this and we end up with a fun and diverse format. I'm just a little scared that Wizards vision of that is a format where you can play all kind of different mid-range strategies. Also I'm sad for the death of fast combo
I think that if the artifact lands were unbanned, any of them really, then the new-age Tezz AoB Affinity lists from Legacy could be ported over into Modern and would probably be slightly degenerate. I can't say I am certain.
I do not think it would be wise to unban the artifact lands.
If you're going to use this argument, and discount all the cards that were designed before the "modern design philosophy" was developed, then you need to discount ALL of those cards, not just the ones on the ban list. Cards like Dark Ritual, Counterspell, Brainstorm, etc, that were staples in earlier sets (through Masques) until WotC decided to lower the power level. Guess what? A lot of those cards that were designed before the "modern design philosophy" are staples in Legacy. If you took them out, then you'd have a format MUCH more similar to Modern than to current Legacy. Your argument to discount those cards is still ludicrous, because those are the kinds of cards that make Legacy different from Modern. If you don't like them, then don't play Legacy (why do you think I don't?). I love Modern as it is. I certainly wouldn't argue with a P-Fire ban or a Nacatl ban (I'd be bothered if Tarmogoyf went, though, even if I don't own any or want any), but I don't feel like those bans are NEEDED to make the format fun. Not the way it needed to lose Hypergenesis or Glimpse of Nature or Cloudpost.
The thing is not all the old cards are broken, some are unbelievable broken, some are unbelievable bad and some others are ok. Among the cards you mentioned, all of them have been printed again (at least until Masques, wich was a reasonably fair set) because they are among the "ok" cards. I'm putting the old broken cards (Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, the 5 Moxes, etc.) in a different category than the rest (like Earthcraft). The cards on the first group have a much higher power level than the other 10.000 cards. That isn't the case for the cards on the second group, they are just punctual design mistakes, most of them aren't that bad because designers have been doing better and better along the years, some aren't that strong by themselves but combine powerfully with another cards, others are indeed very strong, but not stupidly strong, just a little stronger than we'd like to.
So what I'm trying to say is: Modern is free from the cards of the first group. All of the cards in Modern's banned list are punctual design mistakes, wich aren't very common anymore, and hence is unfair to say Modern's banned list is proportionally smaller than Legacy's one, because Legacy has an aditional problem with its card pool (in addition to the ocational punctual design mistakes) which are the flagrant design mistakes present in the first sets.
I've just played a game.
I was piloting UR Storm. Against Nacatl deck.
1st round - Nacatl
2nd round 3/3 attacks, another Nacatl on table
3rd round 3/3 AND 3/3 attacks
My 3rd round - I'm trying to combo, I'm dead to MANA LEAK.
No more questions. I really think this guy is terrible, just terrible to the format. He exploits insane Zoo mana base in a way no one really can do anything about it. Or if you can - you have to sacrifice A LOT of deck. This is warping, I guess.
What's the point of running combo?
I think the problem is combo is just too slow. Aggro can goldfish in turn 4 with or without Wild Nacatl, so there's no sense in forcing all combo decks to kill in 4+ turns because as you said: What's the point of running combo? You are not faster and probably are a lot more vulnerable to disruption.
Letting aside my "Lets unban everything!!!" inner being, maybe a reasonable solution (instead of banning Wild Nacatl) is to unban some of the "less broken cards" like Chrome Mox, Umezawa's Jitte or Ancestral Vision (also Bitterblossom, but that wouldn't be very useful against zoo). That could help balance the format, or maybe not but anyway they aren't going to break the format.
If we were not unbanning any cards and wanted to balance the format, I agree with Chapin, Nacatl is probably the best posible ban. We want to hit zoo, and hit it hard enough. Banning the fetch lands and/or the shock lands would be too much, it would kill a lot of deck building possibilities. Of all the remaining cards there are 2 candidates that could hit zoo hard: Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf, from wich Nacatl is the less versatile, in the sense it can only be played in a reduced amount of decks.
On the other hand, Tarmogoyf has been long hated by players through all formats, so maybe Wizards will choose him for the ban hammer? I'm just guessing...
"The Legacy banned list is much smaller than the Modern one if you ignore all the broken Legacy cards that were banned for being too powerful."
I'm sorry, but this argument is ridiculous, as is the assertion that those cards don't 'count' because they're old. The difference between the two formats is exactly that Legacy contains many of the older, more powerful cards. Of course a comparison of the banned lists needs to take that into account. And of course they didn't ban a huge number of newer cards in a completely different format where older, more powerful cards are still legal.
Maybe I didn't explained myself very well, let me put it this way:
Imagine Wizards goes like: "trololol herpderp we forgot how to design sets, so we are printing stupid cards like Instant - R: this card does 7 points of damage to target creature or player. And some stuff like Creature - 8GG: 6/6 Trample with cummulative upkeep GGGG" and then they go: "Ah well that was stupid, so lets return to normal, balanced, modern design".
In that case I would completly understand if Modern's banned list was 60 cards long, because they would have to ban all those particular cards. So that's what happen with the first sets of magic more or less, beacause they didn't have a lot of experience designing like they do today.
But that isn't the case with Modern, they just banned too much cards that aren't that unbalanced (at least not as much as some of the first cards) without even giving them a chance to prove their brokeness (or their eh... fairness... yeah).
"The Legacy banned list is much smaller than the Modern one if you ignore all the broken Legacy cards that were banned for being too powerful."
I'm sorry, but this argument is ridiculous, as is the assertion that those cards don't 'count' because they're old. The difference between the two formats is exactly that Legacy contains many of the older, more powerful cards. Of course a comparison of the banned lists needs to take that into account. And of course they didn't ban a huge number of newer cards in a completely different format where older, more powerful cards are still legal.
Yes, but is different because the power level of cards from Invasion onwards (maybe even before that) is much more even. The difference in power level between cards is a lot smaller in modern than the differences you could find in legacy if you allowed all the cards in both cases. What I mean is that if those cards weren't banned in legacy they would render obsolete all other cards just by sheer power. Why would you play any draw spell over Ancestral Recall? Why wouldn't you play 4 moxes of each of the colors of your deck? And so on. In modern you don't have that, there are some powerful combinations, but there aren't cards that are that much better than all the rest.
Legacy only works because of Force of Will. I don't want Modern to function under the same "glue-that-holds-the-format-together" mold. Keep free counterspells out of it. I am perfectly comfortable with having a longer banlist to accommodate that. I don't want every deck running blue.
That was the case when mental misstep was legal. Today, Legacy top 8's look like this:
SCG Legacy Open - Las Vegas (06/11/11)
1) RUG Tempo
2) RUG Tempo
3) Reanimator
4) Elves
5) Aggro Loam
6) Maverick
7) Bant
8) Burn
Also, the worlds team finals was Maverick v/s Sneak Attack
That's about half of the decks running blue (note that there are 7/10 decks running green and 7/10 running red).
Also, that's just high level play. If high level tournaments are this diverse, imagine how diverse a local tournament can be.
Did you really just say that if we take all the over-powered or broken cards off the Legacy banned list, it makes the Legacy banned list really small?
That's not precise. I said that if we take out all the OLDER broken cards, that were designed with a different approach and had a power level that just isn't comparable with the thousands of cards in Modern's card pool, then the banned list would be much smaller than Modern's one.
Legacy has Force of Will, a card from Alliances that is, let's be honest, incredibly broken to help keep everything else in check. The major reason Force remains unbanned in Legacy is that banning it would necessitate banning dozens of other cards.
Modern has no access to such absurd permission to keep its brokenness in check. Legacy's card pool is somewhat more than twice as big as Modern's, and its banned list is about twice as long, and yes, most of the cards in it are from earlier sets; of course if you arbitrarily say most of the most powerful cards in the format don't count, then Legacy's banned list is shorter! A lot of cards that are unbanned in Legacy would have to be banned in modern if they were legal in it; certainly Modern couldn't survive Force of Will existing in it.
I strongly disagree, Force of Will or a similar card would be excellent for Modern. FOW isn't that broken, is just a very good card. It has the outstanding characteristic of being very good against fast combo and not very good against aggro (that makes it fair). Maybe all Modern needs is a little love from Wizards in the counterspell department.
Still, Over Extended had a much, much smaller banned list, and the format was just fine. You could play aggro, control, combo and a bunch of rogue strategies and still do decently. And that was without FOW, just counterspell (Mental Misstep was legal though).
I disagree with Patrick Chapin when he says Legacy's banned list is proportionally larger than Modern's. If you only look at the numbers this might be true, but if you look more carefully you'll realize that Legacy's banned list has a completly different nature than Modern's one. Why is that? In Legacy there are 60 banned cards, from wich:
That leave us with 48 cards, but wait, there's more, some cards like the ones from the power 9 are on a completly different power level than the rest of the cards, and hence are unfair and would kill the format's diversity. Modern designers just doesn't make cards of that power level anymore (And no, skullclamp isn't comparable to Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall or Time Walk, and even if it was, it would be the only one in modern's card poll). Of course that's valid for a lot of the older broken cards, that includes:
If we take out all the cards from the first age of design (Alpha through Alliances according to Mark Rosewater), when the power level of some cards was just absurd for today's standars, we are left with only 20 banned cards! Thats already smaller than modern's banned list, but wait! there's more...
If we take out all the cards from the second age of design (Mirage through Prophecy according to Mark), when the power level of magic still wasn't well balanced at all (some of the most broken cards came from that era: Yawghmoth's Will, Tolarian Academy, Tinker, Oath of Druids, etc...), we are left with... (drums)... only 3 cards! (Mind's Desire, Skullclamp and Mental Misstep) Yep, that's right, only 3 cards from 12 magic blocks, more than half of the total card pool (that should say something about the difference in power level in the first eras of magic and the modern eras).
Considering that, modern's banned list is actually larger than legacy's! Even if you consider the cards from the second era. I'm not saying Modern should have only 3 cards banned, but 27? Ponder and Preordain? Really?
perhaps we dont just need a ban list, maybe we need a limit 1 per deck, or even a limit 2 per deck list on certain cards that feel like theyre too underpowered to be on the ban list. the two cards that stand out on the current ban list that could be acceptable at 1 per deck would be blazing shoal, while the shoal turn 2 infect combo was really crazy and powerful, would you really care if you were playing an infect deck and got hit with a good trick, or a nuts hand that exists for every deck?
I don't like the restricted list idea because it seems to lessen the variability of a format (see Vintage for example).
About Umezawa's Jitte, lets remember the original reason it was banned was Stoneforge Mystic. But since the Mystic is already too powerful even without it, and should stay banned IMO, there just aren't enough good reasons to keep the Jitte banned.
Also, ramp strategies aren't naturally favored against control because control can just focus on countering/discarding only the big bombs and just don't worry about the ramp and other minor spells. The problem with 12-post is that every build was running Emrakul, some even 4 of them, and there's no way control could deal with a turn 5 (hardcasted) uncounterable/timewalker/pro colors/anihilator 15/15 flying spaghetti monster.
I agree almost 100% with this list. Altough it depends on the deck you are running. Remand is at its best in combo decks and Cryptic Command in control decks. I'd say Mana Leak is the best overall.
Ok ok guys you win, Skullclamp is a stupid card I know. Also Dark Depths is a very powerful deck, and it would keep the competitive power level of the format quite high, wich I don't think is a bad thing, but I can understand people that want a more approachable format. Dredge and Elves are also poweful decks, they weren't tier 1 in the old extended (Mirrodin-Zendikar), but I still think they are very strong and probably just were pushed out by DDT. Affinity is also very strong, especially after Scars of Mirrodin, and with almost every powerful combo banned it would probably be too format warping. IMO Thopter Foundry is on the same power level of the previous decks, and should be treated the same way. Considering that Mental Misstep is banned in Legacy, and espeacially if we want to give blue some other powerful tools like Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Ancestral Visions for example, is reasonable to ban it too. About Cloudpost, I think the main reason it was so good against control is Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, other win conditions aren't nearly as good, the rest of the eldrazi are counterable and don't win on the spot, and Banefire & pals are more expensive and can't be cheated into play. Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull is one of the most dominant interactions in recent memory, leading tier 1 decks in Standard, Extended and Legacy, so is reasonable to say that its power level is a little higher than we want for Modern, I would leave JTMS though, given that it wasn't a dominant force in any format (except Vintage) until Batterskull was printed. Bitterblossom and Ancestral Visions are ok, I think almost everyone agree with that. Also is not clear that Chrome Mox would actually speed up the format since it's a common tool in control decks too. Infect is a very fast deck, but also very fragile, being vulnerable to almost every removal spell ever printed, it wasn't even a dominant strategy in Philadelphia, when people weren't prepared for it at all. UR Combo decks like Splinter Twin and Storm were very strong, but that was probably due to control being dead, also I think it's sad that the format is so powered down they had to ban Ponder and Preordain (and Rite of Flame, to a lesser extent). Umezawa's Jitte has never dominated any large format, it's strong, no doubt, but Chrome Mox-like strong, not Skullclamp-like strong, so is fair to give it a chance, especially if we are banning the Mystic anyway. Valakut is also a fair deck, and probably was banned only because Wizards wanted more new decks to show up (same as Bitterblossom). And finally, Hypergenesis is just a stupid deck (even without Emrakul), I think almost everyone also agree with this. All that being said, if I had to do a more conservative, but still fair banned list, it would be something like this:
I'm not really sure what would be better to ban from affinity. I don't like to ban the artifact lands, but certainly banning Disciple of the Vault and/or Arcbound Ravager wouldn't be enough, since there are competitive legacy lists with neither of those. Maybe the Disciple and Cranial Plating?
Also, I'm not really sure of the brokeness of Mental Misstep in this format.
On a different note, has anyone considered that Knight of the Reliquary might be the offender?
It would be really sad to ban anything from Zoo, since the power level of its individual cards isn't that broken. They are all strong, but fair cards that join together to make a very good deck. I insist that it's better to unban a few things, like Ancestral Vision, Bitterblossom, Jitte and/or JTMS to balance the format. But if we are actually going to ban anything from Zoo, IMO the main offenders are Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf. Knight of the Reliquary isn't nearly as powerful as it is in Legacy, because of the lack of broken lands like Karakas, Maze of Ith and Wasteland. Even then, I'm not sure if banning only one card would be enough, given the redundancy of the deck.
On a side note, I'm not very used to write in english, so I apologize if my posts sound a little weird. Also, feel free to correct my ortography or redaction, it would be useful for me.
I was going to reply, and then realized this is one of those discutions that could go on and on and we aren't going to get anywhere because we have already set our minds haha.
I really hope they fix this and we end up with a fun and diverse format. I'm just a little scared that Wizards vision of that is a format where you can play all kind of different mid-range strategies. Also I'm sad for the death of fast combo
+1
At least not with the actual banned list.
The thing is not all the old cards are broken, some are unbelievable broken, some are unbelievable bad and some others are ok. Among the cards you mentioned, all of them have been printed again (at least until Masques, wich was a reasonably fair set) because they are among the "ok" cards. I'm putting the old broken cards (Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, the 5 Moxes, etc.) in a different category than the rest (like Earthcraft). The cards on the first group have a much higher power level than the other 10.000 cards. That isn't the case for the cards on the second group, they are just punctual design mistakes, most of them aren't that bad because designers have been doing better and better along the years, some aren't that strong by themselves but combine powerfully with another cards, others are indeed very strong, but not stupidly strong, just a little stronger than we'd like to.
So what I'm trying to say is: Modern is free from the cards of the first group. All of the cards in Modern's banned list are punctual design mistakes, wich aren't very common anymore, and hence is unfair to say Modern's banned list is proportionally smaller than Legacy's one, because Legacy has an aditional problem with its card pool (in addition to the ocational punctual design mistakes) which are the flagrant design mistakes present in the first sets.
I think the problem is combo is just too slow. Aggro can goldfish in turn 4 with or without Wild Nacatl, so there's no sense in forcing all combo decks to kill in 4+ turns because as you said: What's the point of running combo? You are not faster and probably are a lot more vulnerable to disruption.
Letting aside my "Lets unban everything!!!" inner being, maybe a reasonable solution (instead of banning Wild Nacatl) is to unban some of the "less broken cards" like Chrome Mox, Umezawa's Jitte or Ancestral Vision (also Bitterblossom, but that wouldn't be very useful against zoo). That could help balance the format, or maybe not but anyway they aren't going to break the format.
If we were not unbanning any cards and wanted to balance the format, I agree with Chapin, Nacatl is probably the best posible ban. We want to hit zoo, and hit it hard enough. Banning the fetch lands and/or the shock lands would be too much, it would kill a lot of deck building possibilities. Of all the remaining cards there are 2 candidates that could hit zoo hard: Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf, from wich Nacatl is the less versatile, in the sense it can only be played in a reduced amount of decks.
On the other hand, Tarmogoyf has been long hated by players through all formats, so maybe Wizards will choose him for the ban hammer? I'm just guessing...
Maybe I didn't explained myself very well, let me put it this way:
Imagine Wizards goes like: "trololol herpderp we forgot how to design sets, so we are printing stupid cards like Instant - R: this card does 7 points of damage to target creature or player. And some stuff like Creature - 8GG: 6/6 Trample with cummulative upkeep GGGG" and then they go: "Ah well that was stupid, so lets return to normal, balanced, modern design".
In that case I would completly understand if Modern's banned list was 60 cards long, because they would have to ban all those particular cards. So that's what happen with the first sets of magic more or less, beacause they didn't have a lot of experience designing like they do today.
But that isn't the case with Modern, they just banned too much cards that aren't that unbalanced (at least not as much as some of the first cards) without even giving them a chance to prove their brokeness (or their eh... fairness... yeah).
Yes, but is different because the power level of cards from Invasion onwards (maybe even before that) is much more even. The difference in power level between cards is a lot smaller in modern than the differences you could find in legacy if you allowed all the cards in both cases. What I mean is that if those cards weren't banned in legacy they would render obsolete all other cards just by sheer power. Why would you play any draw spell over Ancestral Recall? Why wouldn't you play 4 moxes of each of the colors of your deck? And so on. In modern you don't have that, there are some powerful combinations, but there aren't cards that are that much better than all the rest.
That was the case when mental misstep was legal. Today, Legacy top 8's look like this:
SCG Legacy Open - Las Vegas (06/11/11)
1) RUG Tempo
2) RUG Tempo
3) Reanimator
4) Elves
5) Aggro Loam
6) Maverick
7) Bant
8) Burn
Also, the worlds team finals was Maverick v/s Sneak Attack
That's about half of the decks running blue (note that there are 7/10 decks running green and 7/10 running red).
Also, that's just high level play. If high level tournaments are this diverse, imagine how diverse a local tournament can be.
That's not precise. I said that if we take out all the OLDER broken cards, that were designed with a different approach and had a power level that just isn't comparable with the thousands of cards in Modern's card pool, then the banned list would be much smaller than Modern's one.
I strongly disagree, Force of Will or a similar card would be excellent for Modern. FOW isn't that broken, is just a very good card. It has the outstanding characteristic of being very good against fast combo and not very good against aggro (that makes it fair). Maybe all Modern needs is a little love from Wizards in the counterspell department.
Still, Over Extended had a much, much smaller banned list, and the format was just fine. You could play aggro, control, combo and a bunch of rogue strategies and still do decently. And that was without FOW, just counterspell (Mental Misstep was legal though).
- 9 are ante cards.
- Chaos Orb and Falling Star just play differen from how the game is played today.
- Shahrazad is banned for making games last too much (similar to Sensei's Diving Top.
That leave us with 48 cards, but wait, there's more, some cards like the ones from the power 9 are on a completly different power level than the rest of the cards, and hence are unfair and would kill the format's diversity. Modern designers just doesn't make cards of that power level anymore (And no, skullclamp isn't comparable to Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall or Time Walk, and even if it was, it would be the only one in modern's card poll). Of course that's valid for a lot of the older broken cards, that includes:
- Balance
- Channel
- Demonic Tutor
- Fastbond
- Land Tax
- Etc...
If we take out all the cards from the first age of design (Alpha through Alliances according to Mark Rosewater), when the power level of some cards was just absurd for today's standars, we are left with only 20 banned cards! Thats already smaller than modern's banned list, but wait! there's more...
If we take out all the cards from the second age of design (Mirage through Prophecy according to Mark), when the power level of magic still wasn't well balanced at all (some of the most broken cards came from that era: Yawghmoth's Will, Tolarian Academy, Tinker, Oath of Druids, etc...), we are left with... (drums)... only 3 cards! (Mind's Desire, Skullclamp and Mental Misstep) Yep, that's right, only 3 cards from 12 magic blocks, more than half of the total card pool (that should say something about the difference in power level in the first eras of magic and the modern eras).
Considering that, modern's banned list is actually larger than legacy's! Even if you consider the cards from the second era. I'm not saying Modern should have only 3 cards banned, but 27? Ponder and Preordain? Really?
I don't like the restricted list idea because it seems to lessen the variability of a format (see Vintage for example).
About Umezawa's Jitte, lets remember the original reason it was banned was Stoneforge Mystic. But since the Mystic is already too powerful even without it, and should stay banned IMO, there just aren't enough good reasons to keep the Jitte banned.
Also, ramp strategies aren't naturally favored against control because control can just focus on countering/discarding only the big bombs and just don't worry about the ramp and other minor spells. The problem with 12-post is that every build was running Emrakul, some even 4 of them, and there's no way control could deal with a turn 5 (hardcasted) uncounterable/timewalker/pro colors/anihilator 15/15 flying spaghetti monster.
I agree almost 100% with this list. Altough it depends on the deck you are running. Remand is at its best in combo decks and Cryptic Command in control decks. I'd say Mana Leak is the best overall.
& the artifact lands?
Watch list: The rest of the actual banned list.
I'm not really sure what would be better to ban from affinity. I don't like to ban the artifact lands, but certainly banning Disciple of the Vault and/or Arcbound Ravager wouldn't be enough, since there are competitive legacy lists with neither of those. Maybe the Disciple and Cranial Plating?
Also, I'm not really sure of the brokeness of Mental Misstep in this format.
It would be really sad to ban anything from Zoo, since the power level of its individual cards isn't that broken. They are all strong, but fair cards that join together to make a very good deck. I insist that it's better to unban a few things, like Ancestral Vision, Bitterblossom, Jitte and/or JTMS to balance the format. But if we are actually going to ban anything from Zoo, IMO the main offenders are Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf. Knight of the Reliquary isn't nearly as powerful as it is in Legacy, because of the lack of broken lands like Karakas, Maze of Ith and Wasteland. Even then, I'm not sure if banning only one card would be enough, given the redundancy of the deck.
On a side note, I'm not very used to write in english, so I apologize if my posts sound a little weird. Also, feel free to correct my ortography or redaction, it would be useful for me.