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  • posted a message on [[MCD]] Silver-Bordered Cards in Cube: An Introduction and Discussion
    Quote from MrFloppy »
    My cube is finally to a point where I'm not making sweeping changes anymore, so I've been thinking of expansions I can make to switch it up and this thread definitely has convinced me to make an UN-expansion. Togglodyte and booster tutor especially seem awesome to play with. Does anyone have any ideas for what archetypes you can make/support with a large amount of UN cards? (I'm thinking of ~160 card expansion)


    Hmm, I never considered such a large expansion. I'll certainly think about it and pipe up if I have any worth while conclusions.
    Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
  • posted a message on [[MCD]] Silver-Bordered Cards in Cube: An Introduction and Discussion
    Lots of great suggestions! I will be out of the country for the next while, so I will not be able to update the OP for sometime. Just letting you know that I am not ignoring all the great comments!
    Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
  • posted a message on [[MCD]] Silver-Bordered Cards in Cube: An Introduction and Discussion
    @Humpty_Dumpty:

    Thanks! I agree with you on the novelty thing. I would love to cut Booster Tutor (as you can probably tell from my write up). But the group loves it - it is always highly drafted and played. I will certainly keep an eye out for a card I can justify cutting it for to them.

    Quote from Mister Lamp
    All of that and no discussion of what is probably close to the single best silver-bordered card you can run?
    Gifts Given
    If you draft some 5 color fixing, that card is insane. You just have to remember not to leave your opponent's cards in your deck.


    Wow, huge oversight. It will be fixed as I flesh out the list. Thanks for pointing that out!

    Quote from d0rsal
    just my 2 cents, but in my 336 powered cube, both blast from the past & cheatyface have been fine cards. blast from the past has been a utilitarian burn spell, providing red some additional reach & card draw. cheatyface on the other hand has been a workhorse. its amazing how any deck gets better w/ a free 2/2 flyer; especially when he shows up early in the game!


    Your group must be way less argumentative then mine! That is awesome that it worked well for you. We are just a little too scrappy.

    I was not trying to imply that they were bad includes. My goal is to point out the best part and worst part about each card, hopefully so people can know what the effect of the card is.
    Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
  • posted a message on [[MCD]] Silver-Bordered Cards in Cube: An Introduction and Discussion
    This post is a work in progress. I am sure that I have missed cards, and will try to add them when I see them. Thanks!

    Silver-Bordered, or Non-legal official cards (NLO), have always been a bit of controversial topic in the Cube community, since they are in no way balanced within the rest of Magic cards. As someone that uses them and a resident promoter of their inclusion, I thought I would take a moment to share my thoughts on them, and provide a central place for discussion on MTGS. Most of the cards listed below have been discussed in SCDs or the old UN-thread, but in a very scattered manner. I hope this provides a useful one-stop resource for designers just opening up to the idea of non-legal official (NLO) cards.

    Below you will find a first a discussion about why or why not to use NLO cards, followed by a list of cards that I have used or discussed with the community and my quick break-down on their pros and cons.

    Why Use NLOs?
    As far as I see there are three primary reasons to use NLO cards:

    Fun: The first is because they are fun. Fun is of course subjective, but after using them in my cube for over a year, I have found that they add an element of silliness and levity lacking in normal cards. They also explore design space specifically off limits in other cards. This benefits the cube by adding additional variety, considerations, and strategies impossible to experience with out these cards.

    Power: The second is that a very small number of these cards are just extremely powerful. If your goal is to try out the most powerful or efficient cards in Magic, then NLO cards should at least be considered. The specific power cards and their effects are listed below.

    History: For a few people, like me, a Cube should not just be a draft-set that is powerful, but also something of a history of Magic. NLO cards are certainly part of Magic's history - one that very few players have ever experienced. That makes including NLO cards something that really catches players eyes and makes my Cube a more complete history of the game.

    Why Not?: A lot of people simply feel that cards that are illegal in all sanctioned formats should also be illegal in cube. A very understandable position. There is no way to argue against this position, and it is certainly valid. Personally, I just find this rule is less fun. The NLO cards are also compared to custom cards. While I can see that point, these are designed by Wizards, and not designed to fill a specific role as usually the case with custom cards.

    Other reasons for not running them are more flavor or art based. These cards look and feel different. If you only like black bordered cards, they will be really out of place (though silver bordered foils are beautiful). The same goes for the art - it is pretty wacky and out there. The flavor and art of the cards really break with the serious face of Magic. I personally love that, but I also go out of my way to play white, gold, silver, and black bordered cards in order to capture more of Magic's history, so my opinion is a little wacky too.

    Which Cards Are Playable?

    Below is a list of NLO cards that I have either tested or considered for cube. This list is by no means exhaustive but is a great place to start if you are considering testing a few your self.



    Magical Hacker
    Power: Very High

    Pros: Lots of very cool interactions with other cards in the cube. Ultimate your walker the turn you drop it while adding 6+ loyalty. Make Skinrender grant +3/+3. Turn Curse of Predation into a huge burden on your opponent. Very cool stuff.

    Cons: Does nothing by itself. Breaks the normal rules so badly that it can feel like cheating. Feels too powerful outside of a powered cube IMHO.

    Topsy Turvy
    Power: Very High

    Pros: Really adds a new dimension to how the game plays, and teaches the parts of a turn. Acts like a weirdly worded Time Walk. Worst case is drop this when your opponent taps out, and get a full free turn. Best case is untap, draw, attack with Sun Titan, drop Topsy Turvy, attack with Sun Titan again, draw, uptap, disenchant Topsy Turvy on your opponent's end step, untap, draw, attack with Sun Titan getting back Topsy Turvy, attach again, draw, untap... And yes, I have seen this happen. It is totally insane.

    Cons: Can be difficult to play with. New players can be frustrated by it (though less so then Mind Twist). Really tests your knowledge of the Magic phases. If your unpowered cube doesn't run Mind Twist because of power, then this might be too much as well.

    Symbol Status
    Power: Very High

    Pros: Super fun token generator that makes an unused portion of the card a new deck building axis. Likely the most powerful token generator in the history of Magic. Strongly bolsters the Fires deck, makes green a strong(er) token color, and is usually a one shot with Purphoros. Also rewards having many beautiful lands and a variety of card sources. The tokens are colorless, non-artifacts which can come in really handy against protection cards.

    Cons: Rewards having many beautiful lands. Some have said that it is sub-optimal cube design to have different art lands. Personally I think very carefully selected and moderated land from different sets and arts is very appealing. Each to his own.

    Gifts Given
    Power: Very High

    Pros: An absolutely insane card with a little bit of planning. Worst case is that you remove the four most problematic cards in your opponent's deck. Best case is that you grabbed some 5 color fixing and can play their best cards. This card is a beating -- feeling like a 4x Treachery for only 4 mana.

    Cons: You will forget about your opponent's cards at some point. The $100+ price tag means you will want to proxy test this one before buying. It can feel extremely oppressive to have cast on you, so its fun level will be group dependent.

    Booster Tutor
    Power: Mid

    Pros: Adds a fun mini game to the cube, where you get to open a cube pack and choose a card to use for that game only. High variance, sometimes can just win a game out of no where, but usually will be somewhat middling. MaRo has ruled that Cube Packs count as official targetable packs by this card, if house rules bother you.

    Cons: Totally possible to just miss. Also if you always draft the whole cube each time you draft, then it will have no pool to pull from. The card has some serious limitations to keep in mind based on the size of your group and cube. Lastly, it is very easy to forget to remove your booster tutor cards, which can mess up the draft.

    Rare-B-Gone
    Power: High

    Pros: In a rare cube, this just kills so much. If you can draft a RB deck that is mostly C and U cards, then it is a cheap one sided O-Stone.

    Cons: Extremely hard to build around in most Cubes. It has a very high ceiling, but more often then not, it just rots in your hand because it does so much damage to you too. Also takes a multicolored slot, which are very limited.

    Blast From The Past
    Power: High

    Pros: A burn spell with Buyback. One of the most flexible cards printed, it can do a ton of things. Cool to have so many options and so many keywords.

    Cons: The poster boy for cards that require a lot of Magic knowledge to play. No reminder text at all means that players have to ask what half the modes are. This may or may not be an issue for your group. Over costed without using one of the special modes.

    City of Ass
    Power: High

    Pros: A second City of Brass. Amazing fixing. Amusing use of 1/2 mana. Very rarely, the 1/2 makes all the difference. Condescending someone for 1/2 more than they can pay is hilarious. Can also cast Condescend or Syncopate off one land as a Force Spike.

    Cons: With City of Brass, Mana Confluence, and Grand Coliseum already filling this need, I'm not sure you want another 5cc fixer under 540 or so. Personally, I am not a fan of the art. Each to their own on that front.

    Who/What/When/Where/Why
    Power: High (but only because of it's flexibility)

    Pros: Card basically does anything. 5 totally different modes in each color is pretty cool. Card looks crazy too, which can be good depending on your taste.

    Cons: Not all modes are created equal, so it does not end up playing like the 5 color spell I was hoping it would. Also can be an honest pain to read.

    Jack-in-the-Mox
    Power:Mid

    Pros: A 0 cost mana rock that feels balanced in an unpowered or low powered cube. The fact that it explodes for 5 when you roll a 1 makes for some interesting choices when to use it. Also very funny when it does blow up.

    Cons: Basically a colorless mox, since you never get the color you want. Sometime it will blow up right away, or kill you at a low life total. Incredibly unreliable.

    Cheatyface
    Power: Mid

    Pros: A 0cc 2/2 flier that provides 3 devotion to U and is a fine tempo creature -- when you can sneak it in.

    Cons: Very under powered when not cheated into play. Creates arguments like no other card in Magic. The debate about when people must notice it and how disputes are handled will likely require house rules to keep someone from table-flipping.

    B-I-N-G-O
    Power: Low

    Pros: A 10/10 Trample for 2 when you get him going. Amusing subgame makes your opponents think about what they are casting. An awesome excuse to yell Bingo!

    Cons: A lot to get going. Needs to be on the board when the spell is cast, so unless you drop him early he will not get the counter needed. None of the rows are a super shoe in, but you can mitigate that somewhat by holding spells until you need them to turn him on.

    Old Fogey
    Power: Mid

    Pros: A 7/7 for GG that you get to keep, sorta. Basically a fully pumped Goyf all the time. Way cool in a Snow Cube.

    Cons: Oh the rules. Phasing in particular makes this card a rule nightmare, as its Echo, Cumulative Upkeep, and Fading all do funky things because of it. Phasing also makes it playable, as it's cost don't get totally out of hand -- assuming that I understand these rules right... Point made.

    Meddling Kids
    Power: High

    Pros: Choosing any 4+ letter rules word is extremely powerful. Similar to TNN, the Kids have the 'As it enters' rules, meaning if you choose Instant (7 letters) it cannot be responded to. Other words of four or more letters: Creature, Sorcery, Planeswalker, Artifact, Equipment, Enchantment -- you get the idea.

    Cons: Even with its crazy power, it is unclear how well it competes in Azorius, particularly at 4cc. It can certainly be a pain to deal with if used well, but less so then TNN.

    Rocket-Powered Turbo Slug
    Power: Low

    Pros: Hilarious Pact like rules for a 3/1. Can be very good in the R aggro deck, as it lets you drop two threats and hopefully win the game on your last turn, without paying (like any Pact).

    Cons: The rules are a bit confusingly written, but any group who has used a Pact card should be able to grasp it. It's biggest problem is that it is just a little too weak.

    Incoming!
    Power: Low

    Pros: Basically Super-Duper Eureka at twice the cost. Hilarious board states. Extremely satisfying to cast. A crazy ramp card that should end the game.

    Cons: A crazy ramp card that does not necessarily always end the game. Sometimes you are gonna have a huge smile on your face as you cast this, only to realize afterward that your opponent got the better deal without paying 8 mana.

    Super Secret Tech
    Power: Variable

    Pros: If you foil out your Cube, this card can be extremely powerful. The cost 1 less in particular can do some crazy things.

    Cons: Have to foil out your Cube. Personally I don't like the differentiation between foil and not, but your group might love it if they feel differently.


    Frazzled Editor
    Power: Mid

    Pros: A R bear that ends up having from protection from a ton of stuff. Often plays out like a unblockable 2/2 with semi-shroud.

    Cons: Requires you to determine if flavor or just rules count, and be very clear on that. If you count all lines of text (which seems most natural) then there is no equipment the Editor can wear. Protection from a lot of the bigger cards, but weak to several of the 2 power 1 drops and removal spells. Have to make a rule on text-less cards if you run them.

    General Recommendations For First Time Inclusions
    • Start with only one or two NLOs in your cube. This allows people to get used to the idea of them being cards with actual play and strategy. If you suddenly throw in 10 of these crazy cards the group will treat it as a joke.
    • Start with cards that are less rules intensive. I think Symbol Status is a great candidate as it is fun, clear, and easy to resolve in the middle of a game without a judge on hand. I would NOT start with Topsy Turvey, Blast from the Past, or Old Fogey unless your group is all seasoned Magic vets.
    • Be very careful with cards like Cheatyface. They can create some fairly intense bad feelings and arguments without a very specific group. Of course they could be perfect for your group too.
    • Don't be afraid to cut these cards. I ran Rare-B-Gone way way longer then I should have because I so wanted it to be fun. It wasn't, and I should have cut it way earlier.
    • Here is my short list of cards I think you should test: 1.) Symbol Status; 2.) Blast from the Past; 3.) Booster Tutor; 4.) Topsy Turvy.
    • Have fun with these cards! They are meant to make cube more enjoyable. If they don't, cut them in an instant (that goes for any card).
    Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
  • posted a message on [[MCD]] The X+Y Sword Cycle
    While I agree with the 'play all 5' camp, if I had to cut one, it would def be Light & Shadow. The gain 3, return a creature is the least impressive from my testing. While it is nice that it can recur a body to carry it, we have never seen a particularly broken cycle from that. That said, +2/+2, and prot WB often reads "protection from all targeted removal" since the body is usually to big to be burned, and BW have the lion's share of the targeted removal in the cube. Just pointing out that 'weakest' is no where close to 'weak'.

    Over all I think
    1.) Body and Mind - the fact that it makes a body to carry it for every hit just makes it so brutal. The mill thing is also fun, and has lead to blowouts both ways. Something very satisfying about winning the game against B&M with 3 cards in your library.
    2.) Fire and Ice - Shock, draw is amazing.
    3.) Feast and Famine - few turns have been better then drop a walker, hit them, get a card out of their hand, untap, drop another threat.
    4.) War and Peace - attack + lightning helix is amazing too.
    5.) Light and Shadow - above.
    Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
  • posted a message on [Offtopic] Community Thread
    Quote from Antknee42
    This weekend I'm playing with the Chattanooga Symphony on their movie pops concert, and Alan Silvestri himself will be conducting his own music from Back to the Future with us!

    I'm excited and I'm pondering if I should bring my Predator DVD for him to sign, heh.

    -AA


    I think you have to. No choice in the matter.

    Posted in: The Cube Forum
  • posted a message on Card Æsthetics Evaluation Thread
    Also not a fan of the new Remand. But the new Jace art I am debating on. New Vraska seems terrible, but both Jace4 looks are pretty eh.
    Posted in: The Cube Forum
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Trade Evaluation -- Pile A versus B
    Quote from Temhoahreji
    As I'm trying to complete a set of dual lands (mint mostly) I would take "B"
    Now with that being said I'm not sure how used LP is, but pending price of LP vs NM/M
    B looks to be around 472 where Pile A looks to be around 394. B looks like it's clear to me also with that fact you are trading up and not having to pay any premium.
    these cards are nothing, pyromancers were 2 dollars other day.
    4 Pyromancer Ascension
    1 Tectonic Edge
    1 Path to Exile (MMA)
    1 Spell Snare (MMA)
    4 Manamorphose
    1 Sphinx's Revelation


    I did take B in the end as I am trying to get a set of 10 duals for my cube. Though my figures were a lot different. TCG last night when I made the trade, I was favored but only by about $12 ($417 vs $429). Given that I feel the Modern playables are more likely to grow, though with a lot less safety, I felt this was a really close trade.

    Pile A - 4 Remand
    Pile B - 4 Stormbreath


    I'd go with Remand. Remand might get reprinted soon, I dunno, but in the mean time they are a lot easier to move. I have 3 Stormbreathes rotting in my binder with very little interest. =(
    Posted in: Market Street Café
  • posted a message on Planechase Cube
    I agree on playing more multiplayer. I am lazy and we don't bother with Planes that fit our decks, we just shuffle all we have together and let the super swingy multiplay games commence.

    Please keep us updated on what you decided though. I would love to hear how it goes for you. Maybe I will emulate your methods!
    Posted in: The Cube Forum
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Trade Evaluation -- Pile A versus B
    Pile A:
    1 Tarmogoyf (MMA)
    1 Dark Confidant (MMA)
    1 Scalding Tarn
    1 Marsh Flats
    1 Celestial Colonnade
    4 Pyromancer Ascension
    1 Tectonic Edge
    1 Path to Exile (MMA)
    1 Spell Snare (MMA)
    4 Manamorphose
    1 Sphinx's Revelation

    Pile B:
    1 Volcanic Island (REV LP)
    1 Bayou (REV NM)
    1 Savannah (REV LP)
    1 Taiga (REV NM)
    1 Badlands (REV LP)
    1 Plateau (REV LP)
    Posted in: Market Street Café
  • posted a message on Signets and Bounce Lands
    I ran just the blue signets for a long time, when I was still missing a lot of the colorless cards I wanted to run. These days I only run Izzet Signet, and that is planning to come out when I find another colorless card I want to run.

    They are good, for sure, and you play both Tezz's, so the are much better in your cube than mine, where art.dec is not a thing.
    Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
  • posted a message on [[SCD]] Drogskol Reaver
    I run him in my multicolored budget cube and I have to say his fun level is off the charts. He is not good enough for the real cube but I am happy to have a slot for him. Just feels great to hit with this guy.

    (I cloned him in a draft game once and almost decked myself. Drawing 8 extra cards a turn gets dangerous quick!)
    Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
  • posted a message on Group Cube Draft IV: Pools posted Post 618
    Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Cryptic.
    Posted in: The Cube Forum
  • posted a message on Card Æsthetics Evaluation Thread
    Reg Non-foil < Promo < Pack-foil
    Posted in: The Cube Forum
  • posted a message on Thinking about moving up to 450
    I went to 450 from 360 about 6 months ago. At the end of the day I just felt there were too many super fun cards I was leaving on the sideline at 360. My group has loved the increased variation and archetype support at 450 - we have no plans to either increase to 500 or to return to 360.

    There is nothing keeping you at 360 other than tradition or the desire to have a super tight list. I think 450 is tight enough, while still allowing for specific decks and the like. The other thing that might influence you is the number of players to draft with. If it is never larger than 4, you lose a lot of archetype support due to seeing too few cards. Just something to think about.
    Posted in: The Cube Forum
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