I guess here in a week or two when I add in an extra card of each color I could try her out over SSS if I can't get a Natural Order before then.
Adding Natural Order is a strong, strong reason to keep SSS, not cut it IMO. SSS is not as flashy as Primus or Hornet Queen, but it is usually my preferred target in GU due to shroud. Just food for thought.
I recently played against Prophet in a casual environment, and it is really cool. I think the flash creature thing is a bit better then wtwlf gives credit for, but sadly I think it is at best 6th in Simic, and might be as low as 8-9 just off the top of my head. As many have mentioned, it's super sweet, and if you can slot it in for that reason, more power to ya. But I think SSS, Snake, Kiora, and Trygon are all worlds better, as is Edric. Which is awesome for Simic, but sad for Prophet.
Just wanted to say I also enjoyed the work you three are doing! I will watch out for new episodes now. Was great to hear what you guys all think, and also what Mark had to say too. Not that your cast should be too MTGS-centric, bout it would be awesome to hear from some of the other big wigs around here too.
Should you gents ever looking for a discussion of UN cards, I'd love to chime in. Also, there is some very interesting work happening locally here with a fine fellow making what he calls the Meta-cube, from which he can build all our cubes at will. He probably has some interesting things to say as well.
Just out of curiosity, you guys have an American, a Frenchman, and Portuguese voice - why are you hosted in Canada? Whatever the reason, love it. Props for making the community that much better.
Colby, I hope you don't mind me attempting to put words in your mouth. I am just trying to clarify. If I'm wrong, let me know and I'll edit this away.
So I think Reforge the Soul is a lot like Colby's third Wildfire. We have had a lot of discussion on what card to use if you want a third Wildfire - I believe the community consensus is that the different 3rd versions are all too bad to run but some might in order to make Wildfire just that much more playable. Colby wants a 5th Timetwister in order to support a storm archetype that he really cares about, just someone who wants to run Destructive Force would for Wildfire. He has a very specific and rational reason for wanting that, and for mentioning it here in case anyone else wants it for their support package. He is not recommending that everyone slam Reforge into their cube no matter what. Nor that we should be cutting Wheel of Fortune for its way better brother Reforge.
I think it is good to have discussions about these more fringe archetype support cards. It seems that like Destructive Force, much of the community is not interested in going to these lengths to support draw-7s. But that does not mean the card is the worst thing ever, or that Colby is wrong for bringing it up. I don't plan on running it in my cube, but I will save one of my copies in order to have it around should I change my mind. Which I think is very helpful.
We did this with Modern Masters (as did many others) and are currently setting it up for Conspiracy. Granted it is a much smaller starting set then a full block, so you will want to tweak the numbers. For MMA we actually had two people create a cube in our group, one opting for 1:2:3 for R:U:C and the other wanting a bit heavier common environment using 1:2:4. I have drafted both several times, and both ratios work out just fine. Spairy was spot on with cutting a lot of the chaff. In MMA that meant removing cards like Dragonstorm that could not really be played in any MMA limited deck. We also combined R and M cards into one R grouping since M cards take the place of R in packs.
If I were to do this again for a whole block I would: 1.)Settle on a R:U:C ratio. I would likely pick 1:2:3 in this case due to individual commons being much rarer in a format with three different set packs. 2.)Settle on the size of the cube I wanted. It would be pretty easy to have a huge cube if you want to keep most of a block, but I would lean toward keeping it tighter so any card dependent themes you choose to support can come together. An example of what I mean recently came up in a Conspiracy draft I did. I assembled a brutal combo-mill deck by using Alter of Dementia, Deathrender, and huge late game creatures like Ignition Team. I'd guess that if I drafted Conspiracy 1,000+ more times I would not get the 5+ rares necessary to assemble that combo again - just too many other cards. But in a smaller cube based on Conspiracy it would be much much easier. 3.) Think about what decks you want to be viable. In MMA we wanted Arcane to be a playable deck, so we needed to plan ahead for that. The same is true in a normal cube when working to make aggro good enough to punish control. 4.) Start cutting out the chaff based on your desire total size and viable decks. Keep the cards that support what you want, cut the worst, then see how to fill in the gaps. 5.) Finally, go buy it. Or slap together something that is close from your collection. Assuming you want to design primarily top down.
This was pretty hard! I agree that green often starts as a support color in my cube, but often ends up being the primary color due to it's strength, not it's flash. I rarely pick anything lower then 4 P1P1, but as soon as I am in green, I pick all of these very highly. Symbol Status is not even close to the rest of the list though. No other green card has won so many games nor pulls me to play green like Symbol Status. There is a huge gap between that and number 2.
MrBrightside nailed it for our group too. I have not been voting this time around (a bit too out of the loop) but Treespeaker is insane. We feel it fights with Rofellos for best mana elf, though the tend to fit slightly different roles. Treespeaker goes in basically any green deck where Rofellos really wants something huge and very green to cast, like Hornet Queen.
If I was taking a green card P1P1, Treespeaker would be pretty close to the top of my list.
EDIT: Also, my cube isn't updated on CubeTutor, although you're welcome to imput the cube from my MTGS thread into whichever program allows you to do what you want to. We're testing some different cards at the moment (which you can see in the last post of my cube list) if you'd like to try the version I'll be cubing with tonight & Friday.
Awesome! We do use a cubetutor scraper to get the bulk of the info, but I can use your thread to find the differences. If I manage it, I will let you know! Thanks again!
Not sure I would say Meloku is the better card. I know a lot of people love it, but a lot of ppl are cutting it too. I feel that is a pretty balanced way to think about it, some love, some eh, prob in the middle.
I have not tried Cube Legacy - only Risk Legacy, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt!
I feel that the +1/+1 conspiracy fills a different role then the stickers. The conspiracy works for anything and fits the needs of the player in each draft. The stickers are a way to memorialize a card or increase the power of a particular deck. I would use both, though I would likely lower the number of stickers similar to a conspiracy. That way you still get that memorial aspect but without flooding the cube with +1/+1s.
Not the standard this or that, but I am finally getting back to my poor neglected cube. In terms of updates, which do you think are the most important to acquire quickly?
Brimaz
Mana Confluence
Banished Light
Gnarled Scarhide
Master of the Feast
Courser of Kruphix
Pain Seer
(Other card from Born/Journey)
From my experience, AEtherling is pretty amazing. I would agree that he is likely the best finisher creature. Meloku and Sphinx are amazing as well of course. Though Sphinx is my favorite create in the cube to Doom Blade (might be tied with Kalonian Hydra). When a control player taps out for a t6 Sphinx, it usually makes me smile, kill it, and laugh all the way to a win, which is why I guess I don't see it being cheaper then AEtherling.
Apparently, unbeknownst to me, my cube is quite slow given my attachment to cards like AEtherling and baby Jace. I would love to draft and play your cube Colby and see how much faster it is then mine or wtwlf's. Thankfully, a friend of mine created a pool he calls the Metacube, which allows us to build basically every cube on mtgs, so maybe I will make that my weekend project. Excited to try your setup!
I also like the comparison to Firebolt. Solid. I cut firebolt for a bit and then realized that basically all my R decks wanted it. It felt weak, and it was not splashy, but it was an important player in basically every R deck. I suppose I feel the same about Call. Currently it is not close to being cut in my cube, but I can certainly see that day coming. I will be sad too, since it is a wonderful foil and a card I rather like.
I played him at 360 unpowered and he took over games there (though in a very subtle but noticeable way). In 450 he does the same thing. One of the marks of experience in our cube group is that moment when a player remarks that baby Jace is way more powerful then they realized, and that it was the card that made their deck work. Then he becomes a fairly high pick, so as the group ages, it gets rarer and rarer to get JB after pick 4-5. I am surprised that he is disliked by some storm supporting cubes. It seems like he is a great game smoother and source of card adventage. And I would assume in storm, who cares if you give them a card when you are going off (most of the time - like tapped out or not blue). Interesting that is not the case.
So I agree with wtwlf, and think he is great. And would cube him at 360 for sure, likely at 270 should you want a 6 person cube.
That pretty much confirms what I already suspected. The only difference was that I bumped Vengevine up ahead of Phantom Centaur. Thanks for affirming my suspicions.
Yeah I should have explained that Phantom Centaur ranking, since a lot of people have cut it out their lists entirely. My ranking comes largely from the interaction it has with Curse of Predation. Which is very narrow, but can happen in any G deck, not just GB. I play the top 6 of that list, and both Centaur and Vengevine can feel narrow for me.
Adding Natural Order is a strong, strong reason to keep SSS, not cut it IMO. SSS is not as flashy as Primus or Hornet Queen, but it is usually my preferred target in GU due to shroud. Just food for thought.
I recently played against Prophet in a casual environment, and it is really cool. I think the flash creature thing is a bit better then wtwlf gives credit for, but sadly I think it is at best 6th in Simic, and might be as low as 8-9 just off the top of my head. As many have mentioned, it's super sweet, and if you can slot it in for that reason, more power to ya. But I think SSS, Snake, Kiora, and Trygon are all worlds better, as is Edric. Which is awesome for Simic, but sad for Prophet.
Should you gents ever looking for a discussion of UN cards, I'd love to chime in. Also, there is some very interesting work happening locally here with a fine fellow making what he calls the Meta-cube, from which he can build all our cubes at will. He probably has some interesting things to say as well.
Just out of curiosity, you guys have an American, a Frenchman, and Portuguese voice - why are you hosted in Canada? Whatever the reason, love it. Props for making the community that much better.
So I think Reforge the Soul is a lot like Colby's third Wildfire. We have had a lot of discussion on what card to use if you want a third Wildfire - I believe the community consensus is that the different 3rd versions are all too bad to run but some might in order to make Wildfire just that much more playable. Colby wants a 5th Timetwister in order to support a storm archetype that he really cares about, just someone who wants to run Destructive Force would for Wildfire. He has a very specific and rational reason for wanting that, and for mentioning it here in case anyone else wants it for their support package. He is not recommending that everyone slam Reforge into their cube no matter what. Nor that we should be cutting Wheel of Fortune for its way better brother Reforge.
I think it is good to have discussions about these more fringe archetype support cards. It seems that like Destructive Force, much of the community is not interested in going to these lengths to support draw-7s. But that does not mean the card is the worst thing ever, or that Colby is wrong for bringing it up. I don't plan on running it in my cube, but I will save one of my copies in order to have it around should I change my mind. Which I think is very helpful.
If I were to do this again for a whole block I would:
1.) Settle on a R:U:C ratio. I would likely pick 1:2:3 in this case due to individual commons being much rarer in a format with three different set packs.
2.) Settle on the size of the cube I wanted. It would be pretty easy to have a huge cube if you want to keep most of a block, but I would lean toward keeping it tighter so any card dependent themes you choose to support can come together. An example of what I mean recently came up in a Conspiracy draft I did. I assembled a brutal combo-mill deck by using Alter of Dementia, Deathrender, and huge late game creatures like Ignition Team. I'd guess that if I drafted Conspiracy 1,000+ more times I would not get the 5+ rares necessary to assemble that combo again - just too many other cards. But in a smaller cube based on Conspiracy it would be much much easier.
3.) Think about what decks you want to be viable. In MMA we wanted Arcane to be a playable deck, so we needed to plan ahead for that. The same is true in a normal cube when working to make aggro good enough to punish control.
4.) Start cutting out the chaff based on your desire total size and viable decks. Keep the cards that support what you want, cut the worst, then see how to fill in the gaps.
5.) Finally, go buy it. Or slap together something that is close from your collection. Assuming you want to design primarily top down.
Hope that was helpful!
2 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
3 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order
5 Garruk Relentless
6 Sylvan Library
7 Joraga Treespeaker
8 Garruk Wildspeaker
9 Noble Hierarch
10 Thrun, the Last Troll
11 Eternal Witness
12 Green Sun's Zenith
13 Polukranos, World Eater
14 Woodfall Primus
15 Curse of Predation
16 Thragtusk
17 Scavenging Ooze
18 Hornet Queen
19 Kalonian Hydra
20 Acidic Slime
If I was taking a green card P1P1, Treespeaker would be pretty close to the top of my list.
Awesome! We do use a cubetutor scraper to get the bulk of the info, but I can use your thread to find the differences. If I manage it, I will let you know! Thanks again!
Not sure I would say Meloku is the better card. I know a lot of people love it, but a lot of ppl are cutting it too. I feel that is a pretty balanced way to think about it, some love, some eh, prob in the middle.
I feel that the +1/+1 conspiracy fills a different role then the stickers. The conspiracy works for anything and fits the needs of the player in each draft. The stickers are a way to memorialize a card or increase the power of a particular deck. I would use both, though I would likely lower the number of stickers similar to a conspiracy. That way you still get that memorial aspect but without flooding the cube with +1/+1s.
Hope that helps!
Brimaz
Mana Confluence
Banished Light
Gnarled Scarhide
Master of the Feast
Courser of Kruphix
Pain Seer
(Other card from Born/Journey)
Apparently, unbeknownst to me, my cube is quite slow given my attachment to cards like AEtherling and baby Jace. I would love to draft and play your cube Colby and see how much faster it is then mine or wtwlf's. Thankfully, a friend of mine created a pool he calls the Metacube, which allows us to build basically every cube on mtgs, so maybe I will make that my weekend project. Excited to try your setup!
So I agree with wtwlf, and think he is great. And would cube him at 360 for sure, likely at 270 should you want a 6 person cube.
Yeah I should have explained that Phantom Centaur ranking, since a lot of people have cut it out their lists entirely. My ranking comes largely from the interaction it has with Curse of Predation. Which is very narrow, but can happen in any G deck, not just GB. I play the top 6 of that list, and both Centaur and Vengevine can feel narrow for me.
2 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Master of the Wild Hunt (if you support a heavy token theme in green)
4 Wickerbough Elder
5 Phantom Centaur
6 Vengevine (much higher in the GB reanimate deck, but sadly only that deck)
7 Chameleon Colossus** (has spent very little time in the cube)