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  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    What are you guys thoughts about Blood Moon in a 3 color version of our deck? Is is doable or better not?

    Btw I can see black splash working better in non-chord deck. You can concentrate on combo and protect it with Thoughtseizes. Also have access for Slaughter Pact to not die to Twin while still going forward.
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)

    Of course, neither is really relevant to this deck.


    Thank you Mr. Obvious... He asked, I answered.
    I didnt see "Combo" Elves doing anything in modern. I looked "combo" elves thread, they are playing beck/call, pacts, 4 elvish archdruids. They want to have infinite mana/infinite draws and then hoof. They play 1 lord because it makes mana. I play up to 16 lords because they are pumping creatures. I want to get then dead.

    Probably what is important from my testing agro elves is how powerful Root Maze is if resolved quickly.
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    Quote from Koperbox »
    Can you treat us with a decklist? What it means to you if Heritage Druid gets killed after you play it turn 1?


    Ask and you shall receive:



    With 20 1 drops (I dont count Joraga Warcaller as a 1 drop, more as a 3 drop), you should never start with Heritage Druid. Most optimal play is starting with mana accelerator even over sentinel, because in case of thoughtseize on turn 1 you still can play 3 drop or 3 more elves on turn 2.

    Not impressed by Craterhoof, as in this deck you need to have Elvish Archdruid and ~4 other elves to cast it. At this point you are probably winning anyway.

    Also not so sure about all forest. Probably deck should run Pendelhaven and/or 4 Horizon Canopy. Especially Horizon Canopy. Probably Cavern of Souls as well?

    Also saw Copperhorn Scout. Good to apply pressure / still put creatures on board + extraordinary with Ezuri and/or Imperious Perfect. However really bad turn 1 play.

    Lead the Stampede is very good, however in this deck I run 40 creatures. Dont suggest it in normal devotion with Sprawls/Garruks etc. Optimal is to hit 3/5, that means ~36 creatures are needed.

    SB is pretty basic: 3 anti sweeper cards, 3 removals, 2 anti pod/twin/affinity cards, 4 anti evasion vs green (goyf decks and pods), 3 anti midrange decks with fetchlands. Nothing better than playing turn 2 5 guys + root maze.

    This deck is an agro deck, it isnt a midrange or combo deck (even if it feels like it while you play).

    I was thinking about playing Quest for Holy Relic alongside 2-3 equipments (Batterskull, Argentum Armor, Sword of War and Peace), however I dont know at what point of curve I would like to play it. Never turn 1 (if I have accelerator). Turn 2 3 drop is probably better, and you cant get heritage druid mana with it. I still see, that Sword of Fire and Ice for card advantage would be probably still good.
    If only Bloodbraid Elf was legal... (ah those times getting Lead the Stampede out of Bloodbraid Elf...)
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    Done testing with Elf agro in modern.

    Deck is super powerful, any hand with heritage druid is around 8-9 power on turn 2. Max what I did was unloading whole hand: sentinel, heritage, sentinel, tap for 3 mana, cast anything from hand, rinse and reapeat. With Lead the Stampede I put 14 PERMANENTS on turn 2, killing him on turn 3. Without heritage I was turn slower, however still quite powerful.

    Not saying that deck is better, however I see potential.

    From my slim testing I saw the power of Root Maze. This power is SICK. It does nothing to you, and blows opponent. You cant however run fetchlands. So anyone wanting to play mana denial green red devotion, it might be for you. 4 Blood Moons, 4 Root Mazes, 4 Plow Unders. SICK.
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    Before trying out other options with green devotion I will see if Mono Green Elves agro could be a thing. Really like the idea of playing 16 1 mana accelerators(heritage, llanovar, mystic, arbor) with sentinel, 12 lords (joraga warcaller, elvish archdruid, imperious perfect, elvish champions in the sb), 4 finishers (2 hoof, 2 ezuri), and 8 card advantage (4 visionary, 4 Lead the Stampede) alongside 16 forests.

    Also found quite cool sb card in Root Maze. You need to play no fetchlands, however it makes your opponents fetchlands very bad. It could be a thing in a green denial strategy (however list then cant run fetchlands at all).
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    So you guys dont have problems with Merfolks? As my question and whine just dissapeared unanswered...

    Maybe they just had 4 out of 5 nuts hand vs me?
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    I played on PTQ yesterday...

    Room was filled with Twin, Pod, Affinity, UWR and BGx...
    Went 1-2 Drop. Didnt have power after saturdays standard 8 round WMCQ to play 5 more rounds when I couldnt win anything. Probably wrong as I didnt test enought?

    Won vs UWR Kiki Jiki 2-0, quite easily.

    Then got demolished twice by Merfolks, 1-2 and 0-2. I mean, every game I had elesh norn on turn 4 or 5, and still lost because Elesh didnt matter as they had bunch of unblockable 2/2 or 3/3. Dunno, game I won was because of Beast Within on my spreading seesed land so I could detroy him mid combat after he attacked with everything (soak ~15 damage from master of the waves elemental. Kill everything on board. Win from there). I didnt draw a single path to exile, and polukranos that I wanted to monstrous for 6 to kill 2 lords and a master got vapor snagged...

    Do you think of any card that could change this matchup? Or is it just bad if they have everything? Vial into Spreading Sees into 2 lords into master lord is gg most of the time if they also have any peace of interaction like vapor snag, dismember or spell pierce.
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    Quote from Aidan »
    4-0'd a daily (well, 3-0, round 3 opponent never showed) yesterday night.
    Ran with this list (including a pretty strong 14 card sideboard <_<):


    While I think the selkie's might be slightly underwhelming generally, replacing them with 1 of's doesn't seem much better. The revoker *might* become spellskite and move to sideboard, but the revoker did so much work, but I did play vs affinity and jund, where the card is strong.

    I beat storm round 1 (primal command is a good card), jund round 2, despite many misplays on both sides - I think I should have won with perfect play from both sides though - and affinity round 4 (despite forgetting my kataki game 2).

    I mulliganed a LOT of 7 card hands attempting to find a 1 drop - is this correct? Maybe I was getting super unlucky but I probably mulled 6+ times in the first 2 rounds alone :(.

    Having the selkie's maindeck is nice, they're never a card I mind drawing without being able to save me alone, however they are an easy card to sideboard out, as they're more just value than particularly amazing in any matchup. Would be much harder to cut cards without this "flex" slot.

    I'm still unconvinced by goyf, I don't think he'll often be very big without relying on your opponent to be doing the work for you. We also have almost no way for him to get through opposing goyfs. Maindecking ooze was really strong imo, does so much in so many matchups.


    I understand what you mean about Tarmogoyf. Depending on Purklefluffs answer about timing I might cut it and replace it with something else, probably Scavenging Ooze.

    I like your lits, 10 1 mana accelerators and 21 lands seems right, so is 8 3 mana card advantage. Still not sure how many big mana cards I want - I think 11 is great number to have (both mine, yours and Purklefluffs and some others people lists all have this number - so it might be right.)

    About Wistful Selkie - I love this card, however I dont want to overload my 3 drop slot (currently 4 Witness, 2 Coursers and 1 Knight), thats why I will probably play Elvish Visionary. While less powerful, mana curve is quite important (especially if you dont have turn 1 mana accelerator). I think I would like to have 7-9 non-reactive 3 drops.

    @Purklefluff

    I also need some more data about Knight of the Reliquary and Coursers of Krupnix.
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    I think we should look at another midrange/combo deck in a meta - Melira Pod, where we can see they always have run 2+ Abrupt Decay. Right now some of the versions even start to play MD Thoughtseizes. IMO 2-3 slots gives another dimmension while are not dilluting our plan.

    Primal Command lock isnt always about attacking their mana - in some cases it is made so they wont draw any more spells. In cases you need path to exile - so either Rock, Affinity, Zoo, etc. you want them stop drawing spells, as those decks can easily function on ~3 lands.

    One thing I noticed in last decks is lack of card draw, and in this place people are playing more mana acceleration. I dont state it is incorrect, however I would like to discuss it. I always played 8 to 10 card advantage cards - selkies, visionarys, witnesses and coursers. Right now I am torn about ratio to play ;/

    Ok I have to make this deck for PTQ. Here is my list so far (56 MD cards:)



    SB WIP, depends on a maindeck.

    Like some of you might notice, I changed a deck a little bit:

    • 21 lands - not sure if correct or not, however want to have 16 colored sources.
    • 1 Genesis Wave "ups I win" button
    • Nissa, Worldwaker - in search for another 5 drop I was thinking about this or Reveilark. Both seems good, however this one seems better.
    • Most important - this deck is only 56 CARDS.

    Why I post list with 56 cards? Because I want some help to decide. I am torn between:

    • More 1 mana accelerators in Birds of Paradise
    • 2 mana card draw in Elvish Visionary
    • 3 mana card draw in Wistful Selkie
    • 1 Scavenging Ooze
    • 1 Tarmogoyf

    Depending on choices I will decide about land count/4 drop of choice (obviously if playing 4 Elvish Visionary I can cut a land, probably similar if I decide to play 3 BoP. Similar with 4 drop of choice - Restoration Angel only if I play 3+ Selkie/Visionary. Polukranos MD would also let me have more SB slots)

    You may ask why Tarmogoyf, as purklefluff already said it is terrible? My concept is that it might be good to have one "Big dumb idiot" as a 2,3 and 4 drop (Goyf, Knight, Polukranos) as they tend to stabilize ground quite well. It is not a turn 2 play, it is more of a turn ~4 play when you command for creature to play same turn while already having witness in hand.

    Why Scavenging Ooze? - more slots in a SB while not bad in most matchups.

    How should I fit those last slots? Or would you recommend some other configurations? Depending on MD I will then move on with a sideboard.

    Currently my favourite configuration is:
    • 1 Birds of Paradise
    • 1 Tarmogoyf
    • 3 Elvish Visionary
    • 20 lands and Restoration Angel

    It then gives me:
    9 1 mana acceleration
    9 card advantage devotion enablers

    Curve of:
    11/4/8/5/5/2/1/1 and 3X

    What is bad with this configuration?
    I need to have 2 more sb slots: Scavenging Ooze and Polukranos are crucial cards, I dont feel safe going for a tournament without them in 75.

    @Purklefluff

    Need to hear more about Tarmogoyf. Did you never want to draw it? Were you unhappy drawing it on turn 2?
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    Quote from KingReckanize »
    Here's my latest list that was played against a bunch of friends recently

    This version was alot more consistent than my last. MD Paths help alot. At one point my brother (playing 4C Gifts) Gifted unburial rites into iona, shield of emeria named green and smiled only for it to eat a Path. I love kiki-jiki, mirror breaker in this deck because he and restoration angel provide value in the deck by themselves and we all know what they do together. Only one time i had Kiki trapped in my hand unable to cast because of his strict RRR Which brings me to sylvan caryatid for staying devotion (admittidly small) but the Hexproof helps and his 0/3 body survives pyroclasm Like others before me have said courser of kruphix is a stud and i never mind seeing him. Still needs alot of work/testing but as i've said before i believe Devotion has alot of potential.


    One thing for sure when playing with Kiki-Jiki and Elesh Norn is the fact, that both have really hard mana costs, however we can manage it with utopia sprawls/untappers and enought shocklands.

    Looks like my post about manabase helped a little bit, most people play 21 with 4 nykthoses and 20 lands with 3 nykthoses, which I think is correct choice (especially without BTE).

    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    Quote from purklefluff »
    Testing results so far:

    Affinity (two versions)
    Dark confidant version:
    Couple of matches.
    Game 1s were always close (or felt that way) but i ended up being able to take all the games despite some glaring misplays. Won with garruk overrun once and elesh norn the second time. Courser of kruphix and path to exiles were the MVPs.

    After sideboard it was a whitewash. Won all the games (played a few extras) and my friend who built the deck to take down a PTQ got a bit frustrated. He expected stony silence and instead I boarded in the following
    1x kataki, war's wage
    1x qasali pridemage
    1x creeping corrosion
    1x path to exile (got an extra in the board, 3 in total)
    1x reclamation sage

    Chording into those cards felt super powerful versus the fairly linear affinity deck. They have no real way to interact with instant speed chord into sideboard hate. I never felt like I needed nature's claim here.
    The fact he was expecting more 'mainstream hate' worked to my advantage. He sided in a bunch of artifact and enchantment removal.
    Total record 8:0 highly favoured post board. Pre-board I'm willing to admit I probably got lucky, although courser of kruphix goes a long way towards making this more consistently winnable.


    Galvanic affinity (running full 4 blasts)
    This matchup is more tricky as this deck runs ways to kill off your mana dorks and 3 blood moons in the sideboard. Despite this, the record is as follows:
    4:2
    Lost both game 1s against this version. When they draw a strong hand we can't do a whole lot. In both matches here I ended up winning because of my post-board strength vs the deck.

    To make space for the five cards going in, i take out the following:
    1x Craterhoof behemoth
    1x primal command
    1x primeval titan
    1x knight of the reliquary
    1x genesis wave

    I recognised quite early on that i really want to be using witness in this matchup to get back path to exile and re-buy chords or sideboard hate. So i sided out a bunch of the slower, bigger stuff that doesn't interact very well with fast aggro. It worked.

    Issue that arose: seeing as a lot of my sideboard is 1-of creatures to fetch up with chord for a big effect, i feel like perhaps I should keep a fourth chord of calling in the sideboard. At the moment there's three in the main (and I'm keeping it that way because there's not many maindeck powerful targets) but once sideboarding happens I feel like I need to max out on chord. But then drawing multiples too early is probably bad. Do I just keep three in the 75 and leave it at that? It's a hard choice. My gut feeling says leave it at three.


    Infect:

    Tough matchup. Spellskite and maindeck paths go a long way towards making it winnable game 1, and game 2 we can bring in more removal. Primal lock is decent here as it prevents them from drawing into more pump spells. They play very few lands anyway. Once again, eternal witness recurring path is effective and paid off very well here.

    Record 4:3
    I feel like I learnt a lot by playing this deck. It highlighted in a very exaggerated way the weaknesses of the deck. After only one game I realised we need some maindeck removal (i.e. Path) otherwise we just roll over and die to quick aggro decks. After that single game, the deck was changed and it's been very positive since. I think this matchup is close to 45:55 in their favour. If they don't get the nut draw we can capitalise very easily. If they do, we basically just lose. Very swingy. With tight play i think there's a chance. If they run blighted agent (unblockable) it becomes exceedingly difficult without the all important path or beast within. If you draw either of those, you're golden.

    Vs RG tron:
    Tougher than I thought it would be. I had some difficulties versus an early pyroclasm as i fairly regularly have to run out my bird or elf in order to get an early garruk to get traction. Obviously if we get a primal command off everything gets easier, but a quick wurmcoil engine is tough to deal with. Path makes it easier. There is a certain point where they can just deal with everything we throw at them. If they can land a karn early enough that we can only cast primal command but not follow it up with a second one, they just replay the karn or their final tronland every turn and win easily. Beast within is a good call. Creeping corrosion is good as it forces them to crack their oblivion stones for less value. Courser is generally decent here as it gives you time and life. Knight of the reliquary is strong. Fetching ghost quarter is Powerful. Eternal witness either of those and you have the game well in hand obviously.
    Record 2:0 so far. More games incoming

    Also got coming up jund, pod, twin, junk etc. More to follow :).

    Btw writing all this on my phone so excuse the lack of card tags and any bad spelling (autocorrect is a batch. Luckily my phone now recognises most cards I've written a few times)


    Good testing going on, remember to post a decklist at the end! I understand you have 4 commands, 3 chords and 1 genesis wave, as a pay out cards?

    If you have ghost quarters, remember to sb them in vs affity as well. Getting rid of man lands is quite powerful as well.

    I like Pridemage, Reclamation, Kataki and Corrosion vs affinity, howeve corrosion isnt as universal as I would like a sb card to be. Stony silence might be better vs tron or is it not needed?

    Ghost quarters that means no Plow Unders in sb?

    And you are totally right with Eternal Witness. Getting back Path to Exile, sb cards, Ghost Quarters or Beast withins seems powerful. I understand you have 2 PAth to Exile MD and 1 more path and beast within in the sb? Good split.

    Are you testing no-Goyf version currently? Elvish Visionary as a 2 drop or no 2 drop at all?
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    Does anyone other than thavisaurius had success with Strangleroot / Baloth version of a deck? It looks intriguing, as it gives good stuff to do before our mana is developed.

    Bonfire of the Damned is ... intriguing, however I saw version with some kind of burn - the one that is uncounterable and cant be prevented. It is quite good non-creature based win condition.
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    Quote from CurdBros »
    Hey Guys! The discussion here is great! I have a few opinions on some of the newer topics/ideas that have popped up; but for now I'd prefer to provide my testing results over the last few weeks (the games I started writing down for this forum after joining it)...I apologize in advance..I wrote down each set of games separately and am just "putting them together" now; so it may seem a little scattered. I've tried to make them as succinct as possible by providing notes, certain interactions, etc. without listing out each and every turn of each game of all 100+; but please feel free to ask for further details and I will provide them where I can.

    To recap the deck, the list that this testing is based upon is my more elf-centric version; however many of the interactions and findings can be translated to other decks and for devotion decks in general (although more so for Genesis Wave versions). Anywho...here's the current list that this testing is based on:



    This deck is pretty much the same deck I've been playing for some time with a few small changes (Genesis Hydra was added, the sideboard was changed slightly, etc.). I'd found in my prior months of testing that the only decks there were bad match ups were UWR Control, Kiki-Control, Twin, and Scapeshift (basically anything blue-based that can slow us down but with a quick enough combo to kill before we bounce back). That's why the sideboard spends a lot of it's cards on such match ups (especially Twin). So without further explanation, testing over the last 160 games (approximately) has gone as follows:

    Vs. Rock 11 games (9-2 record)

    Obviously this is a pretty easy match-up for us. Not much needs boarded and most games go pretty well whether they are pre- or post-board. They do have a few cards that can be powerful against this build including Drown in Sorrow; but the match up is heavily in our favor. If and until this deck becomes somewhat popular; this is a match-up that we win at a high percentage. Some important points in this match-up are:

    1. Genesis Wave is extremely powerful in this match-up. Basically, if you cast a wave for X=6 or more; you will most likely win the game.
    2. Because their damage is creature based; we often can simply block those we need to and often we have more creatures than they do (and eventually larger creatures than they do). Just as the deck has some bad match ups; this one happens to be a good one.
    3. Dark Confidant and Courser of Kruphix is the worst pair against us. If they get them out quickly, it makes it difficult for us without a Wave. We typically are the deck with card/board advantage; however they can nullify this together. These are the games they win.

    Vs. Tempo Twin 21 games (13-8 record)

    This is far and away the toughest match-up for this deck. Game one, we are definitely not favored. I only played 8 total pre-board games in this period; and lost 5 of them. While this is a slightly lower win percentage pre-board than I had in the past; I'm giving it the most credence as it is the latest set of games. Given that this is the toughest match-up we have; I have devoted a large portion of the sideboard to it. Fortunately; many of the cards used for this match-up work for our other poor match-ups. To date, I side in 9-10 cards vs. Twin. I'd like to play two Combust; but right now I feel like I get more out of a one-of Wurmcoil Engine than running a second Combust. Also, we already side in 10 cards and transform the deck quite a bit...so we're in pretty good shape. Post-board; however, our record jumps to 10-3. Granted, it plays entirely differently; however it seems to be quite effective. The important points/strategies/cards here are:

    1. In game one, you must be as aggressive as possible. Don't keep a "slow" hand (i.e. one without a turn-ramp).
    2. Choke and Boil are unreal here. If you resolve it, the game essentially is over. My favorite play is a Boil right after they cast their Pestermite on turn 3 to tap out Smile
    3. The basic goal is simple...keep them off their combo. With Beast Within (x2), Combutst, Nature's Claim (x2), Choke (x2), and Boil (x2); it is pretty easy to do this. Eventually, you will win (as they won't have enough counters and/or you will hit a Cavern of Souls to end it). You basically turn into a "semi-control/beat down" deck...keeping them off their combo and throwing multiple threats at them. I also like to side in Elderscale Wurm just in case they happen to hit the combo (as they will have to kill/remove him before they can win with lethal damage).
    4. I currently side out all of my "X" Spells (Genesis Wave, Chord of Calling, Genesis Hydra, as well as Elvish Archdruid. The reason for Elvish Archdruid is because he is an easy bolt/electrolyze target and when you aren't casting huge X-spells you don't need the extra ramp as much as you do the draw.
    5. Planeswalkers are invaluable in any control match-ups. Once down, you quickly begin to outpace the opponent. Between this and all of the card draw; you end up having both ample answers for the combo as well as threats they have to react to.
    6. I don't currently side in Scavenging Ooze or Wheel of Sun and Moon for Snapcaster Mage as it doesn't seem to be a big enough threat.

    Vs. Tarmo Twin 15 games (10-5 record)

    This is very similar to Tempo Twin, however plays a little easier for us (as they are not solely a control deck with a full focus on the combo). Pretty much, the same applies here as Tempo Twin. Sometimes this list will have slightly better sideboard hate against us (Torpor Orb, etc.) so even though you may not need as much hate for the combo; I still side it all in (as it can be used there).

    Vs. Scapeshift 12 games (8-4 record)

    This plays VERY similar to playing against twin as well. They are basically trying to hold us off until they get to the appropriate land count (typically 6-7 depending on how much life we gain/lose). This, however, is a match-up that is much more in our favor than twin (as they tend to cast many more spells early such as Search for Tomorrow, Sakura Tribe Elder, etc.) so (a) we can both cast our own spells early without as much fear of counters, and (b) we can cast our "hate" more easily. A few extra items here include:

    1. Again, Choke and Boil are great. In particular, Boil is crazy good here. It basically is like being able to cast multiple time walks in one card. Choke is extremely effective as well; but it still allows them the lands they need when/if they can cast Scapeshift. Boil does not. This is why I run two of each. I've thought of running a Boseiju, Who Shelters All to ensure the destruction of their lands; however haven't done so as I felt like this might be overkill.
    2. Of course, I also side inWurmcoil Engine and Elderscale Wurm just in case they happen to get to Scapeshift (Wurmcoil of course gains life to put them out of reach and they have to use a couple triggers to Kill Elderscale Wurm or no amount of damage will be lethal. And both are big attackers. I played for a while with Nissa Revane in the board as well (for Scapeshift, Burn, Affinity, and other such match-ups to gain life while increasing devotion) and while this costs less and can end up gaining more life; it can't gain life all on it's own and even after her first +1 she can be removed with a lightning bolt...so for now I'm trying out Wurmcoil over Revane.
    3. There is generally less interaction with Scapeshift than other "control" decks; so we generally can win much more quickly. If they string together multiple Cryptics; however, we can run into trouble. This is why we have to be a little more agressive here than we would be against some other control variants.

    Vs. Melira Pod 12 games (9-3 record)

    Melira Pod is one of the easier match-ups we run into. It's similar to the "Rock" or "Jund" games in so much as generally they are playing a slightly "worse" version of our game (i.e. ramping and throwing out multiple threats as quickly as possible to build up board advantage. We do have to be pretty aggressive (which fortunately we can be) as the only games they generally win is if they can combo off before we kill them. Tips/interactions include:

    1. Genesis Wave is awesome here. They simply can't make up for the board advantage you create. It stays in post-board.
    2. I side in Beast Within; but NOT Nature's Claim...it sounds weird; but there's really no reason to slow ourselves down more than necessary and if we HAVE to get rid of something; we will normally draw into one of the Beast Within's by then.
    3. All in all, it's a relatively favorable match up.

    Vs. Kiki-Pod 8 games (5-3 record)

    Kiki-Pod plays substantially harder than Melira Pod does for us. It does so simply because it can "combo out of nowhere" which we are somewhat weak to. I haven't played enough games to consider it a "well tested" opponent; however it seems like a deck that could be a little harder than my testing panned out. The only pointers I have here is:

    1. In this case, I actually do side in the Nature's Claim. This deck is more focused on using the Pod to "Combo"; so if you hold them off of this they are much weaker (as they have to have the mana to cast their creatures directly). Other than this, most of what was said about Melira Pod is relatively similar.

    Vs. UWR Midrange 13 games (8-5 record)

    This would be our second most difficult match up; however it is far more "winnable" on game one than Twin is. Just as with twin, we are weak to heavy amounts of counters and disruption. While the disruption can hurt our "engine"; it is actually the countering of our larger spells that can be the most difficult item to deal with (as the amount of card draw and ramp in the deck pretty much allows us to maintain the engine of the deck through several disruptions; but there are only so many win-cons). The trick here is to basically throw so much at them that they can't deal with it all. This requires the use mainly of our creatures and our planeswalkers. Again, against control I've found it best to side out all Genesis Waves and Chord of Callings. A few other items, however, are:

    1. I don't side out Elvish Archdruid here due to the fact that many of these builds run 2-4 Electrolyze...and Archdruid greatly reduces the chance that they will get two creatures out of one Electrolyze. This does require slightly different boarding than vs. Twin, but that's OK because they are different decks.
    2. A lot of UWR control decks now also have their own built-in combo (normally it's Restoration Angel + Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker); so once they get to 5 mana you have to start holding up mana to play (or at minimum bluff) a Beast Within, Combust, etc...Again, I wish I had room for a second Combust given the amount of Resto Angels out there; but I don't know what I would cut at this point.
    3. These are the match-ups where Nissa Worldwaker becomes the most powerful card in the deck. She continually puts pressure on them by creating 4/4's and more importantly she allows you to cast a large card on first main, have it countered, and turn around and cast a second large spell in the same phase. Control in particular has issues with Nissa because the 4/4 Tramplers begin to outpace a majority of their creatures and they must deal with her because she "works around" most of their game plan (counters, removal, etc.). Also, because many of these decks play Tectonic Edge, Garruk Wildspeaker's ability to untap a Nykthos Shrine to Nyx becomes less important while Nissa Worldwaker's ability to untap one or more basic Forest enchanted with one or more Utopia Sprawls becomes more important.
    4. Obviously, Cavern of Souls is extremely good in these match-ups. Often times a turn 2-3 Cavern may be right to be set on "Elf"; however most games you will want to set it on "Giant" or "Beast" or "Wurm" (post side) to ensure that your win-con sticks with certainty.

    Vs. UR Aggro 9 games (6-3 record)

    This actually is very tough match-up if they flip an early (turn 2) Delver of Secrets. Of course, this is true of most decks playing against UR Aggro! Outside of that, we are in pretty good shape. It plays less control, and often the control it plays is in the form of Remand which at a certain point is less powerful given the amount of mana we can generate.

    Vs. Red Deck Wins 10 games (6-4 record)

    This generally becomes a race in pre-board games. Bad RDW players will spend a ton of time trying to kill off all of our small creatures, good ones will simply keep hitting us in the face, and great ones will kill off only certain elves with certain spells (i.e. Searing Blaze, Searing Blood sometimes, etc.). We are fast enough that generally we can win a race if both of us (i.e. we and the opponent) get a reasonable hand. Post board; however, RDW really struggles. This is because generally we will be fast enough to tutor for either or both Elderscale Wurm and/or Wurmcoil Engine. A few points here are:

    1. An early Eidolon of the Great Revel can be very troublesome; although we are often fortunate in the fact that we can cast only a few smaller ramp spells (Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, etc.) and utilize Garruk and/or Nissa to ramp into something huge if need be. Regardless, however, a large portion of the "engine" of the deck (that builds up our mana and card/board advantage) is built on cards of 3 or less CMC; so we have to be careful when/if they cast an Eidolon early. It's not something we can't win through; you just have to play around it.
    2. Kinda goes without saying...but make sure that unless you have a turn two Coiling Oracle in hand and no other option; always fetch basic Forests in these match ups.
    3. This is a match up that you have to be very careful around. It seems like you want to just throw everything down as quickly as you can; but there are situations where you may want to "bait" a bolt to an Arbor Elf so you can stick a planeswalker.

    Vs. Affinity 12 games (9-3 record)

    I was initially a little surprised how favorable this match-up seemed. I had thought that Affinity would be one of our tougher match ups. I've tested quite a bit, however, and this seems to be a match up where we are favored. This is mostly due to the amount of "chump blockers" we are able to cast. Obviously, post-board we have plenty of answers including Nature's Claim, Beast Within, Creeping Corrosion, and Wurmcoil Engine Tips/strategies/thoughts include:

    1. The one area we are weak to is flying. Most decks with flyers aren't fast; but this one is. Be it Inkmoth/Blinkmoth or any of their smaller flying creatures...once a Cranial Plating gets put on; we are generally on a 2-3 turn clock. Of course, post-board this is not nearly as big of a deal (as we have ways of dealing with this).
    2. I like to side in Wheel of Sun and Moon here simply because between chump blockers and turning off Archbound Ravenger; it somewhat forces them to have the Cranial Plating (and no way for us to destroy it) on an Inkmoth/Blinkmoth.

    Vs. U/W Tron 9 games (6-3 record)

    This is one of the few "control" builds that is not really a tough match-up. They just tend to run a turn or two too slow. The one card that is an issue game one is Platinum Angel (as we have no removal for it in game one). Basically, it's just a race. This is more of an "online deck" than one that has hit paper too much; but I haven't found it to be a match-up worth worrying about too much.

    Vs. R/G Tron 5 games (4-1 record)

    Same as the UW Tron list (just a race); however this one actually tends to get to it's Tron a little earlier. It's only issue is that without Emrakul we simply go over the top of them (Karn only removes one permanent at a time, Wurmcoil only gains 6 life and often dies to enough blockers or a Prime Time, etc....). Again, this is not something seen often. The remainder of decks are this way (which I why I don't write much about them).

    Vs. Jund 7 games (5-2 record)

    Very similar to Rock builds (see above). Lightning Bolt actually is pretty effeective (of course); however Chandra, Pyromaster is a pretty good card against us. As it is a "fair" deck, however; it thus far has proven to be a pretty favorable match up for us.

    Vs. Merfolk 8 games (5-3 record)

    I've played against this deck enough times to know NEVER play our Breeding Pool. If we don't have an Island early, they can't win Smile Basically that's it.

    Vs. Infect 6 games (5-1 record)

    Unless they can get to their unblockable creatures; we pretty much just chump block for a few turns until we go over their head. Not something I've tested a ton against in the past (approximately 15 games prior to this six) so I can't claim to have a ton of knowledge of the match up. I'm going to continue testing it more (as it is becoming more popular). If it maintains popularity; I may add a Melira to my board (as it would be useful both in this match up and Affinity).

    Vs. Boggles 6 games (5-1 record)

    This one can get CRAZY! Ha. I've had games where they gained over a hundred life but I still won. The game one's they win are when/if they get an early Spirit Mantle. After that, Nature's Claims are held up for it almost solely.

    Summary Take-Aways and Ideas

    1. The biggest takeaway I had from this portion of testing was that this deck is very "specific". It's difficulties are very specific (blue-based control decks and some combo builds). Fortunately, this allows us to develop a sideboard that focuses much of its "hate" against those decks. It took me a good amount of testing to get to this point; as I started with with a "generic" board (good cards, but kinda trying to cover every match up). I then moved to a "Chord" board (with 10 different 1-of creatures meant for specific match-ups; but I found I wasn't getting the 1-of's with enough consistency; and that the blue match ups had to be the focus. Basically, any "fair" deck (that wants to win via creature damage and doesn't have a heavy combo/control aspect) is not much of an opponent for this deck...so you don't really need to board against them. They tend to get overwhelmed to quickly.

    2. With Genesis Wave you play either three or none. In the match-ups where it's good, it's amazing. When it's bad, you don't really don't want it at all. Not that it's bad...I've had games that I would traditionally side out Wave in the second game where I cast a Genesis Wave to win the first game Smile But it is a card that if you side out you typically side out all of them. I think it's one of the most powerful things you can do in fast ramp decks; and it is strong against more than half of the current meta; so I'm keeping it. I do, however, understand the thoughts and discussion about removing it from the more mid-range versions of Green Devotion. If you run a more disruptive version of the deck that tends to play a little longer; it's not as powerful; and you may have better options. I see both arguments; but in here it is a must have.

    3. Chord of Calling provides for spectacular plays on both your opponent's turn as well as to tutor up that card you need right when you need it. It can act as extra copies of nearly every card in the deck. I've "chorded" more for Arbor Elf, Oracle, Archdruid, and Ezuri than I have for Primeval Titan and/or Craterhoof. It's awesome, of course, when you can chord up an Elderscale Wurm post-board. Having said this, I'm down to 2 of them (as they seem to be a card that needs a board presence to be at its best (and one you don't cast generally on the first two turns.

    4. Minamo, School on the Waters Edge was just barely outside of what I considered useful enough to stay in the deck. It's not bad by any means (and with the Abundant Grwoths in the deck; it rarely caused too many problems with fixing in and of itself). Unfortunately, however, devotion decks like this can only play so many "utility" lands and I found I wanted Cavern of Souls, Kessig Wolf Run, and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx more than this. It would definitely be fun in a deck with a 1-of Pendlehaven (which I ran in the past as well); however again this would require far too many utility lands for a deck that requires basic Forests for several of its cards.



    While the total win percentage of the deck over this period was 69% (113 - 51); there are a few things that must be taken into account:

    1. I have a very good grasp of this deck. I am more proficient with it than any other deck.
    2. My opponents may not always have been as proficient with the opposing deck. While my play group plays almost solely Modern (and we each play all of the top decks in the meta weekly while testing); we each also have our "own decks" which we focus the most of our attentions on. Just as when I am helping another test their deck; I may not be the absolute best Affinity (Pod, RDW, etc.) player in the world...the same is true of my play group. While we all have a good understanding how each deck plays/works and represent a knowledgeable opponent...this should still be taken into account.
    3. I have far more knowledge of the opposing decks than they have of me. While I explained my deck and any weaknesses it may have to my play group (and specifically my brother is well aware of these items and I play test with him the most); it is not a "known entity" yet with "boiled down" hate (like affinity, Pod, Twin, etc.)

    Needless to say, in the future each of these "advantages" would be lessened and the win percentage would be reduced slightly due to this. Having said this; I still find the deck to be extremely promising. I actually quite like that the deck has very specific poor match-ups (as it allows us to dedicate a majority the board to transforming the deck to beat them). I am not entirely sure the sideboard is "perfect" (and of course sideboards continue to change with the meta) and will of course continue to explore new ideas and cards.

    There are still a few ideas/cards I'm looking into including:

    1. A God - I like both Nylea, God of the Hunt and Xenagos, God of Revels a LOT. Oddly enough, I would really like to add one of them to my list. Nylea is nearly always a creature in this build and her mana-sink ability is amazing (especially when paired with Trample). She makes Genesis Hydra EXTREMELY Good (as trample pushes him over the top). I've played her in numerous devotion builds and liked her every time. Xenagos is a little more "specialized"; but he too is very often a 6/5 indestructible and is a combo with Genesis Hydra (doubling his power and giving him haste) and vastly improves Prime Time as well as both planeswalkers (turning both of their tokens into 6/6 Haste and 8/8 Haste Trample creatures respectively. I'm not entirely sure which card(s) I would remove to fit one or both of them in; but it is something I will continue testing.

    2. Sarkhan Vol - This card has been in many of my prior decks. It's a powerful card, especially after a wave. I became concerned that it may have become a "win-more" card; however I may move down to one Nissa, Worldwaker and run on Sarkhan as well.


    Anywho, that's what I've taken from recent testing and a brief explanation of how each match up works and which is good/bad, etc. I hope this helps in any way with the Forum. Now the fun part! I get to read the most recent comments and see how everyone has been doing Smile I will begin providing Daily results at some point next week (as I plan on purchasing this deck online this weekend. Hopefully I can do well enough to help do my part to keep the Green Devotion Archetype in the "established" category. Of course, if there are any questions, thoughts, etc. I'm happy to answer what I can.


    Thanks a lot for your recent decklist and matchup reports. It will help us to make this deck as best as possible.

    If you have info (I noticed you seem to have it), would it be possible to edit our post to show pre/post sideboard results? It would be really advantageous for us.

    I understand that lack of white gives you much less options for chord, however I saw something intriguing. You dont have Spellskite and/or Reclamation Sage, cards that shows in most sideboards. Did you find that you dont need them?

    Did you have a possiblity of trying Plow Under? My point about Choke/Boil is the fact it only kills islands, sometimes they might not have lots of them. However I understand Choke/Boil are much more powerful as it might be a GG even. Plus they are cheaper. I like having 2+ way to get rid of their mana, could we discuss those choices?

    I totally understand your opinions about Genesis Wave. In fair matchups they are really good and having them in main allows easy cuts for sb vs unfair matchups.

    I am really impressed by Nissa, I will have to manage some space for her.

    Interesting that you had VERY good results vs both Infect and Boogles. Those matchup seems terrible, could you describe more? You cant chumpblock Plague Stinger/Blighted Agent or Inkmoth nexus, similar how you cant chumpblock trampling/flying/spiritmantled boogle.

    OMG I want SO MUCH play 4 colors elves... Best cards ever I played in various of my testing of this deck is Coiling Oracle, Eternal Witness and Elesh Norn, however those 4 colors...

    BTW CurdBros where do you stand in our BTE or not to BTE thoughts?
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    Quote from Aidan »
    No need to get quite so defensive - I asked you to explain the game plan vs delver (or at least, how your sideboard cards affect the matchup so dramatically over what everyone else is doing) and you kinda ignored it (though it was badly phrased) - I don't think there is any way to change this deck from sub-20% preboard to 80%+ (which is what you'd need to be at 90% vs delver overall), expecting matchups (outside of maybe dredge in legacy) to swing so easily is largely fantastical in any format, so getting game 1 to a place which is better than "hope they don't have delver or pyromancer or draw the nuts" seems more useful. Perhaps this is where the explosiveness of BTE over the stability of geist or goyf is important.

    I managed a 3-1 in my 2nd daily event last night, with which I felt I had a reasonable deck - my first daily I played a super-old fashioned build and did about as well as expected. I did already say I think PTE was a good addition, I said I didn't think there was easily space for BOTH PTE and trap in my sideboard, but maybe thats due to my preference of Genesis Hydra. Trap costs 0 but is easy to play around in game 3 compared to hydra. I already said i'm removing the waves (likely) from my sideboard, but there are other 1 of creatures I wish to run (eg. spellskite).

    PTEs seem like the kind of card this deck really needs mainboard, playing a deck without any maindeck removal seems very bold in the current modern format unless you're completely ignoring your opponents game plan like storm. Our game 1 matchups vs super aggro decks or combo decks like twin/kiki pod are probably more of an issue than what we have to sideboard against them. Its not like we have amazing hate for most of those decks in the board anyway, no matter what we run.

    Edit:
    @charlesching
    My issue with guttural response was that it doesn't seem to stop them applying pressure, which is where I think pedro is correct about path. Trap can RNG you into a lead if you hit the right stuff, hydra gives you a super strong midgame if you get setup, but the best plan is to slow them down I think.


    Sorry about my answer, however I am frustrated, that I am posting something, with testing and results, describing how those cards works in this matchup specifically, and then I hear: You might have played vs bad players. What kind of argument is this?

    About Delver. It is one trick ponny. If they dont have threat/you get rid of it when they have shields down, you just win. They will be on defensive doing nothing, and then your card advantage will overwhelm them. Vs Control it is similar, they just dont have a threat that will force you to play bad.

    How do they play around Trap? They sideboard all counterspells? Good for us, I will just overwhelm them with card advantage and threats. Also trap have other option - you can cast it on thier endstep for 6 mana, which will a)get something good b)get a rebuy c)force them to tap out to resolve a threat MF. Gutteral response cant do this.

    I described those matchups before in this thread, it isnt the first time this question appears.
    Posted in: Big Mana
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