MTG Salvation

Thanks for all the suggestions folks, here is the updated list that I will play on the weekend barring any glaring issues. Pains me to take out Kalitas, but I will just slot him into my vampire build

Quote from Prid3 »

It's worth testing. You could also try fewer Fenlurkers and more Tymaret, Chosen from Death since he survives Deluge fairly well and GY hate is almost always relevant in MP.

I guess the GY hate is relevant since I am not running bojuka Bog, the Kardashian butt is nice early.I think 2 copies feels right

Quote from from Prid3 »

1. He's a sac outlet for the Fenlurker -> Sac Outlet -> Shepherd -> Gary combo which is where most of our wins come from.
2. You almost always immediately sac to goat to dig for lands 4/5 and he always gives you a Scry whereas Reaper doesn't.
3. Scry Engines are completely and utterly bonkers with Bolas's Citadel Scrying away dead lands and such.
4. He's a turn 1/3 play that's resilient to removal.
5. Removal is good against this deck and we typically have very little-if-any recursion so the Escape clause is relevant.
6. This deck typically wants to Dark Ritual Ayara, First of Locthwain on turn 1 over its other 3 drops and casting Woe Strider on turn 3 means that you can sac the goat to draw a card while still maintaining your board presence. If you turn 1 Ayara into turn 3 Reaper you have to lose an important threat if you want to see new cards.

I appreciate this analysis. Does this mean Viscera seer is now superfluous and should be removed?

Quote from from Prid3 »

The more that I play with 4x Castle Locthwain the less that I find myself playing anything other than basic Swamps. At this point I refuse to play ETB lands like Leechridden Swamp and I no longer have cards like Exsanguinate to abuse Nykthos/Coffers. I do still play 1x Volrath's Stronghold though but I also play 25-26 lands so I play it over a spell. I've never won a game where I've missed my 3rd/4th land drop and flooding doesn't scare me given that I'm more than happy to draw 8 lands and double activate Castles later on if needed.

Without Exsanguinate this is no longer a "big" mana deck so that makes sense.
Is it worth playing ANY copies of Witch's Cottage in order to have more options of recurring 'X' creature or is it not worth it?
EDIT: Are we diluting the deck by putting so many different cards in it, as in lowering consistency?

I like alot of these changes. The cat combo easily feels like it can be an aristocrats build so removing those 8 cards feels right.

Dark Ritual in to speed up the deck a bit
Bolas's Citadel feels like an intelligent card to make the best use of the life gain
I do love Defile but I wonder if a couple copies of toxic deluge is a better idea? I know it hits my stuff too

Woe Strider feels "so-so" to me. I have read the card multiple times, what am I missing here? Midnight Reaper does lose a little of its lustre removing the cat combo

Is it worth playing any copies of other utility black lands?

I enjoyed reading Prid3's Mono black Update thread, lots of interesting ideas for decks in there. Today I would like to refocus on an old favorite Mono Black Devotion with our good friend Gray Merchant of Asphodel

One of my biggest issues with multiplayer decks is I get focused on a deck, then somehow start adding elements of another deck to it, often trying to do too much. I play in a pretty creature heavy meta so my card choices may vary slightly from what you would play.



It's obviously a land and creature dominated build. I can easily change that. I own most format staples so making swaps is relatively painless for me.
One of my concerns is that I am all in and don't have any interaction, that probably needs to change a bit, suggestions?
Another concern I have is the cat combo. Perhaps this isn't the deck for it and I have fallen victim to two competing strategies.

I want to play my Phyrexian Obliterator as well as Nightmare Shepherd Other than that, I am pretty much open to ideas so long as they aren't completely focused on zombies as I already have a zombie deck I love to play.

I have played all the Gates archetypes you described above and likely more. Maze's End is a good "oops" I win strategy that I initially built my version around. Gates is a slow archetype unless you hit your untapped mana sources and Abortion Grazer especially if you don't add Amulet of Vigor because the majority of your lands CiPT. (I don't even like Amulet of Vigor in this deck). That being said, as I made it more efficient, I realized that I wasn't really trying to play Magic, rather I was just ramping into the combo of Primeval Titan or hour of promise to snag the finisher while playing "just enough defense".

I found both the Field of the dead and Scapeshift versions powerful at times but also really risky. My meta has a lot of sweepers and without haste, you give the entire table the chance to deal with you. You really want to be triggering a metric ton of zombies and just putting out a couple/few per turn feels lackluster.

The prophet of Kruphix crackling perimeter is cute enough to win if left unchecked but let's be honest, noone lets Prophet of kruphix stick around reliably?

What I actually found to be the "best" way to play this archetype in a multiplayer setting is to make a few different versions of the deck and just rotate cards in/out as your meta adjusts to it. This isn't a strategy for everyone and I realize that running out and buying Playsets of Primeval Titan Hydroid Krasis or Consecrated Sphinx is not possible for many players, nor would I advocate doing so. If you already have the cards, then experimentation is your friend as playgroups and playstyles vary amongst us.

If you stay away from the obvious "combo" cards the majority of the Gates matters cards are cheap to buy and there are a ton of cheap finishers in a variety of colors.. YMMV

Quote from Xyx0r »

There's a lot of cool stuff but none of it has that "OMG I need it" quality. Nightmare Shepherd seems to have the most potential, but I still don't have any specific ideas what to do with it.

I am in complete agreement. I am not actively looking to build many new decks, just potentially upgrade existing decks I have and because of that, there are few cards that I actively need.

Nightmare Shepherd is the obvious one for me. The ability is already making waves in standard with Gary allowing for stupidly easy drain shenanigans. The card has other applications as well, but its first home for me will be in a drain shell.

Dryad of the Ilysian Grove is the other card I really want to like. Good with Field of the Dead or Valakut, the molten pinnacle and she has a big butt.

Is Uro, Titan of nature's wrath in a bant torpor orb Hushbringer deck with eater of days phyrexian dreadnought finally a real deck? Or is it simply better in a ramp shell with Hydroid Krasis and friends.

Plenty of other good cards I simply don't have shells for at this time, plus I usually make the mistake of buying too many cards for ideas that never quite come to fruition or pan out.

Played the deck 5 times today. I won 3 times which was the great part. Riding Luminarch Ascension to victory just feels sweet and the card is filthy post sweeper(s).

My opponent also not dealing with my Divine Visitation enabled my token generators to behave like Luminarch Ascension 5-6 when I didn't draw it. Misplay on their part, hindsight dictates I was not likely to be the winner otherwise. Even so, 2 wins, 2 competitive games, and one stinker is a nice rate of progress for this deck.

Enlightened Tutor gives the deck additional consistency that is sorely needed since we don't draw well at all. Just shave a copy off a few different cards to make room and don't look back. You also don't need to do it until you are ready. Short of some new card coming out, I would never play this deck without 4 tutors (whichever you can afford).

Prid3 was correct, the one game I wasn't playing magic in was the game I didn't draw enough lands. I was too slow and there was missed land drops in another game as well, which means 24 lands isn't enough (a painful reality), so more cuts needed to fit in 2 more lands.

Westvale Abbey I managed to flip it and it immediately ate a Swords to plowshares otherwise I was off to the races. Card is worth adding two more just for the pressure it creates.

I have since removed Stolen Strategy entirely. Comparing it to an active Luminarch Ascension is likely unfair, but I rarely hit more than 6-7 mana before games are over, so at best I disrupt my opponent(s) and that simply isn't strong enough. Can't ever cast a flipped Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. Card is too random for my liking.

While the 3 mana sweeper can be important, it loses it's value quickly and I am almost ready to drop a couple and add two more 4-5 mana sweepers that hit more creatures.

I really want to add blue. Anyone with ideas on a JESKAI control version of this deck. How much blue draw do we need to add?

I have some slight tweaks due to what I face in my meta. I need early defense otherwise I will be picked on. I added Wall of Omens which despite ticking off most of the boxes for this deck, still only feels "fine".

I play two fewer lands 24 - 26, plus I dropped 1 of each basic and added 2 copies of Westvale Abbey on your recommendation.

The other change is playing 4 copies of Elspeth, Sun's Champion if only to diversify my threats, plus I only have 2 copies of Assemble the legion. I may run a 2/2 split with Elspeth, Knight-Errant as we have an ******** in our group who runs cards like Slaughter Games (he stripped me of luminarch Ascension) after I rode it to victory the first game.

Quote from Prid3 »

Small update:

I'm expecting Idyllic Tutor to become affordable within the next few months so I've updated the list to include 4 copies. Not only does it help to ensure a turn 4 Fires but you can also tutor for + cast Assemble the Legion or Stolen Strategy on turn 5.

I prefer the instant speed of Enlightened Tutor myself as the drawback can be relatively irrelevant. I get that it is still an expensive card for some folks and that is a deal-breaker. Unfortunately, because I am running the Elspeth PW'ers adding tutors feels bad (I don't play the full playset of Assemble the Legion either.

Replaced Chaos Warp with Generous Gift because it's a slightly less volatile answer. People who routinely face Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre/Darksteel Forge/Avacyn, Angel of Hope/etc. can swap it back but most people can probably live without the "exile" clause.

Agreed, Generous Gift doesn't backfire and a 3/3 is mostly irrelevant.

Added a second Castle Embereth because the difference between 1/1s and 2/1s is gargantuan once you have an Assemble the Legion going.

I can get behind this as well. Whether it's Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, or Assemble the Legion, it's tough to be relevant with only 1/1.

I have personally played a couple copies of cavalcade of calamity and impact tremors to make those 1/1 more relevant to various degrees of success. Divine Visitation is the best card of the group as it makes your threats REAL and also makes Deafening Clarion THE 3 mana sweeper to play over others.

Quote from Kain123 »

If you play with several opponents, Syphon Mind is a nice card to fetch for with your Dimir House Guard. More cards in hand means more options and it's a great card to play on the same turn as Fires of Invention to ensure that you get your 5th land.

Since my meta is almost always 4 players, no more, no less, Syphon Mind is pretty much Harmonize, a fine card but not stellar. Still, fine is 3 cards and as a freebie in a tricolor deck, perhaps that is all it needs to be.

Quote from Kain123 »

You run a lot of tutors, why so many ? ...you will spend your time looking for options instead of actually playing cards that will make you win the game. There is also stronger cards than Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God for this deck. I would rather see him in a planeswalker-oriented deck.

You aren't wrong here, admittedly I like the card and being Grixis colors blah blah blah....perhaps I play it as a singleton and just tutor for it when I am ready to try and win with it?

Quote from Kain123 »

I'm not a big fan of Sphinx of Lost Truth ...I tried it and it always seemed to me that I was in one of these two situations:

1) I was looking for a Fires of Invention and this card didnt help me
or
2) I had my engine going and I had stronger cards in hand that I could play.

The issue with Fires of Invention decks is that you end up playing a lot of "overcosted" cards simply because with Fires out, the mana sink allows you to gain incremental value, but without it, you probably wouldn't play nearly as many of them. It's a fine balance.

Do you have some examples of cards for your second point?

Quote from Kain123 »

You might need more cards that will protect you in the early game....I like Bonecrusher Giant since it allows me to cast on turn 2 and turn 3 while waiting for turn 4 to play Fires of Invention

Yes, my early game needs work here, which is why I was asking for ideas. I suppose I could just play the usual MBC cards to keep my opponents off balance.

Quote from Prid3 »

I disagree. Lim-Dûl's Vault is a 2-drop that all-but guarantees a turn 4 Fires of Invention so there's realistically nothing better to be casting on that turn. After all, not only does it find Fires + the lands to cast it but you can also stack your library to ensure you don't draw Fires until the turn that you're looking to cast it (to dodge discard). Dimir House Guard does the same thing on 3 CMC and, because Transmute isn't a spell, enables you to go Transmute -> Mastermind's Acquisition -> [ANY SPELL] once you have a Fires out. Between 4x DHG and 4x Mastermind's Acquisition you're drawing into 8 copies of [ANY SPELL IN THE GAME] once you have a Fires out which is nuts. Moreover, while 12x Fires of Invention may be overkill in a vacuum having this many virtual copies means that removal doesn't especially bother you. This deck struggles to play Magic without one since your spells become far too expensive so it behooves to go all-in on playing as many copies as possible.

This was my line of thought as well. I am fine setting up draws and tutoring each game so this control deck plays the best cards and has the best shot at actually controlling the game. Control can be tricky in multiplayer, my opponents often do powerful things so I need enough sweepers, sac effects, card draw, tutors, and the win cons. Without enough of all of these things, the deck is guaranteed to fail.

Quote from Kain123 »

I'll note that I play Massacre in all of my Dimir House Guard decks since it enables you to transform it into an Infest should you need some interaction on turn 3. It's a low-opportunity cost way to add some cheap interaction to the list.

A year ago I would have disagreed with you. My meta just didn't have enough white in it to make the card valuable. This has changed and admittedly with Fires out, the card is pretty decent.

Do you have a proposed decklist I can work off?

Let me rephrase:

When I say punish that birds of paradise, I mean playing my bonecrusher Giant type of spot removal which you are going to do anyways

I agree, saving my Swords to plowshares for some sort of battlecruisers or combo card Bad Mike is the right line of play, I also assumed this was a given due to your expertise in the game.

EDIT for clarity

Once Upon a Time is not a good design, a card like this should have just been blue and look for land or non-creature spell, at least then, the usual whinging about blue would be expected........

I personally stopped using mana dorks because they were pinged too often, setting you back. By the time someone sweeps the board of all artifacts/enchantments the mana rocks and utopia sprawl have already done their work. Our meta plays enough removal for these types of cards, but some players just leave that type of ramp alone, preferring to remove the problematic enchantment or creature that follows, like a painful quandary. Smart players know better, but Magic is full of players who can't see the bigger picture. I personally punish dorks every chance I can because if you don't stifle them, they will KO you, a few turns later.

I agree, that the optimal line of play which includes OUAT, dork --> payoff is tough to compete against if you don't nut draw yourself. However, I do think that is where the politics of the table come into play. If you played that opener against me, I would immediately advise the table of what is going on and hope I can find support from other players. If no one steps up and the turn gets to me, then I will try to handle it. Our table is good at clipping fast starts who don't KO the table immediately.

So the card is gross, but it doesn't often go unpunished, which means it isn't too big of a problem YET.

Uninspired by the lack of consistency in the boros version of Fires, I am trying to put together a Grixis shell as that is one color combination I have long wanted to play but can never seem to find a style that works for me. I have no issues running out tutors and lots of them in order for the deck to be consistent. I still feel like control is the way to build this and I am looking for ideas to flesh out the deck. Not sure if Lim-Dûl's Vault is necessary here and perhaps I should be running more removal (like the full playset of damnation)

Also, with all those tutors, seems to me that I should likely play a smart wishboard. Let's make the deck a Bolas inspired badass.

Quote from Prid3 »

Agreed. The deck wins when it keeps and stick an Innkeeper and loses when it doesn't.



Skullclamp, if you're allowed to play it, will turn it into a "real" deck so to speak. I've also cut 2x Konrad and 1x Order of Midnight for 3x Rankle, Master of Pranks because Priest + Rankle is fantastic at keeping the board clear. They even kill dumb things likes like Emrakul and Progenitus.

I can and will play some skullclamp. So ditch the innkeepers or play both? I also picked up a playset of Rankle, Master of Pranks earlier and was looking for a home for it that isn't solely a STAX build. The cuts for Rankle make sense to me

Pride: I think a thread about that would be great for discussion, I second it!

I think you are right about Boros, perhaps it is just not consistent enough, although a deck THAT ALWAYS plays the same each game can become boring for some players very quickly. Part of the charm for Boros is I have ALL the cards, I don't for Grixis, but I do for Jeskai (at least off the top of my head). Maybe I try Jeskai first and if I still don't like it, I can go Grixis. I know I don't have enough copies Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God

I love when you post decks, I enjoy trying them, seeing if it is something I want to play, making tweaks per my meta and running with it. Keep it up